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MOA or MRAD?

This is a discussion on MOA or MRAD? within the Modern M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; The first half my scopes are Moa which I started with. The second half are MRAD that Iíve been buying lately. It doesnít matter which ...


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Old April 21st, 2020, 05:31 PM   #31
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The first half my scopes are Moa which I started with.
The second half are MRAD that Iíve been buying lately.

It doesnít matter which one I use as long as I remember to look at my turret to see what Iím using at that time.

Probably not ideal, standardizing is probably best but it is what it is.

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Old April 21st, 2020, 06:07 PM   #32
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All of my hunting scopes are MOA, so that's what I chose for my non-hunting scopes.....until I bought a few that didn't give me the choice. I prefer MOA, but I've been using it for decades, not just a few years.


I almost never use the reticle to range, so there's no real math involved.

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Old April 21st, 2020, 11:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
...I almost never use the reticle to range, so there's no real math involved.
Me neither because our range has targets on fixed distance or one of my shooting buddies has a Leica binocular with range finder. And I don't calculate, I count clicks on my MOA scope. Zero Stop at 100m and either turning the turret dial or aiming with reticle marks.

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Old April 22nd, 2020, 01:09 AM   #34
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MOA because I don't wanna take my shoes and socks off. However I can count to 10 on my hands so maybe I'll look in to a new scope for my MATEN build? It should be easy to remember MATEN MRAD works in 10s.

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Old April 22nd, 2020, 01:33 AM   #35
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This might be a good excuse to drop the cash for the MRAD

https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-vip...43128-new.aspx

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Old April 23rd, 2020, 03:32 PM   #36
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To me, it doesn't really matter as long as you can keep the math straight in your head. I typically use MOA for my hunting rifles, mainly because that is how most are made, but use MRAD for my competition rifles where I am jockeying the knobs. I am military trained so that comes a bit more natural to me. If you are out shooting with other competitors or have someone else spotting for you, you typically get calls in MILs, so if you are using MOA, make sure you are all on the same page. On a side note, if you are doing competitive rimfire and shooting at really small targets, like an aspirin at a hundred yards, having a 1/8MOA reticle and clicks will help alot.

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Old April 23rd, 2020, 07:53 PM   #37
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I've shot both, I find mils superior in general.

MOA is an easier system to understand scaling size under. The base unit, 1MOA scales linearly with distance, and is a fundamental unit of a system we're all familiar with, the inch (not really, it's 1.046666666666 repeating inches/MOA @ 100 yds but close enough).

Mils require thinking in math terms that most users are less familiar with. What is 1/1000th of 100 yds? (3.6 inches). What is a tenth of that? (0.36 inches) is not terribly difficult but when someone asks you what one tenth of one one-thousandth of 576 yds is it becomes marginally more difficult. (0.576 yds x 0.1 = 0.0576 yds, but what is that?)

If you're operating in meters it's a lot more simple, 576 m x 0.001 = 0.576m x 0.1 = 0.0576m = 5.76 cm.

I find that mils work better for understanding the size of relative objects and MOA works faster for making corrections when converting a measurement from inches to a given adjustment on your scope. Of course, you can overcome this by just measuring the given distance with your reticle in the scope itself.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 01:00 AM   #38
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I started with Mil reticle/ MOA turret Leupold Mark 4 M3A. Our spotting scopes had no reticle, so to make a re-engage shot in 5 seconds after a miss, you had to do some math to give a hold-off correction in mils.
Later I moved to Mil/Mil scopes and they’re the way to go in optics.
-Regarding the finer adjustment argument, the difference between 1/10mil and 1/4 MOA is 1.1” at 1000 yards. Most reticles are about 2” thick at 1000 yards.
-There’s a lot of talk about thinking in inches. There is no need to think about it. If you’re reticle matches your turrets, look through your scope. It has a ruler in it. If my reticle says the shot is five mils left, how much right do I go? 50 clicks. 5 mils is equal to 17 MOA. How many 1/4 MOA clicks is that? I can adjust in mils without breaking my position to look at the turret.
-Then there is the question, is your scope true MOA or inch-per-hundred-yards (IPHY)That can give you trouble when your ballistic app says 38 minutes to hit at 1000 yds. Your scope is in IPHY so you impact 18” low.
That being said, I own Mil/Mil, MOA/MOA, and Mil/MOA scopes. Learn them both and you’ll never have a problem. I do prefer mils though for optics. MOA for iron sights because that’s what they’re made in.
The only reason I can think of to have an MOA scope is for NRA/CMP competition where the targets have MOA scoring rings.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 05:05 AM   #39
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Why use a Mil/MOA scope? Does that have MOA for windage, and MIL for elevation? Or is it mil turrets on a MOA reticle?

That seems very confusing.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 05:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twarren92 View Post
Just as the title says, just starting a discussion for what everyone prefers or uses. What they use it for.


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Are we talking "Milli-radian" (Mrad, or 1/1000 of a radian) or NATO artillery "mil", 1/6400 of a circle?

(Or Russian mils = 1/6000 of a circle)

Oh, and, 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047197536.... not 1.046666.

One military "mil" is 3.534291... inches at 100 yards (or 3600 inches). So, using the round-offs of 1 inch at 100 yards for MOA, or 1/1000 of the range for mils, will introduce a small error that grows with range. It is just that the two errors are in the opposite direction.

.Range . . . . . . . . . . . . Actual subtend . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Round off subtend mil . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Error
(yards) . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mil . . . . . . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . . . mil . . . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . .mil
100 . . . . . . . . . . . 1.047" . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.534" . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00" . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.60" . . . . . . . . 0.047". . . . . . . . . . -0.066"
1000 . . . . . . . . . . 10.47" . . . . . . . . . . . . 35.34" . . . . . . . . . . .10.00" . . . . . . . . . . . . 36.0" . . . . . . . . .0.470". . . . . . . . . . -0.657"
2000 . . . . . . . . . . 20.94". . . . . . . . . . . . 70.69" . . . . . . . . . . .20.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .72.0" . . . . . . . . . 0.944". . . . . . . . . . -1.314"
3000 . . . . . . . . . . 31.41" . . . . . . . . . . . . 106.0" . . . . . . . . . . .30.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .108.0" . . . . . . . . .1.416". . . . . . . . . . .-1.971"
4000 . . . . . . . . . . 41.89" . . . . . . . . . . . . 141.4" . . . . . . . . . . .40.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .144.0" . . . . . . . . .1.888". . . . . . . . . . .-2.628"

Of course the only stuff shooting direct fire out to 4000 yards are tank guns, and they're shooting a tank-sized targets so 2-1/2 inches is a negligible error.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 06:57 AM   #41
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MRAD for practical accuracy
MOA for paper punching

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Old April 24th, 2020, 09:24 AM   #42
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Tons of info and vids out there; I liked this one:
https://youtu.be/hVOXreCL73g


Or if you're bored:

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Old April 24th, 2020, 10:10 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M11293 View Post
Why use a Mil/MOA scope? Does that have MOA for windage, and MIL for elevation? Or is it mil turrets on a MOA reticle?

That seems very confusing.
Mil reticle with MOA Elevation and windage. This is how some of the first sniper/tactical scope were made. Nightforce still makes models like this. Either route, you should get a scope with turrets that use the same angular unit at the reticle.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 10:51 AM   #44
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There are many good suggestions on here. Like I said, pick one and stick with it. Then, go get some range time. It takes practice getting to know the system or figuring out a system that works for you. Once you have it figured out, it makes life much easier.

By the way, I laser range everything, given the chance. Then I know the exact distance. However, game doesn’t always wait for you to range with a laser rangefinder, pull out your nifty app, and then take a shot. And that’s where knowing your reticle and/or judging distance somewhat accurately is useful. I try to combat that by ranging objects often to know relative distances out in the field. It also helps train my eye for a quick shot. It works for me anyway.

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Old April 24th, 2020, 10:57 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lysander View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twarren92 View Post
Just as the title says, just starting a discussion for what everyone prefers or uses. What they use it for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are we talking "Milli-radian" (Mrad, or 1/1000 of a radian) or NATO artillery "mil", 1/6400 of a circle?

(Or Russian mils = 1/6000 of a circle)

Oh, and, 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047197536.... not 1.046666.

One military "mil" is 3.534291... inches at 100 yards (or 3600 inches). So, using the round-offs of 1 inch at 100 yards for MOA, or 1/1000 of the range for mils, will introduce a small error that grows with range. It is just that the two errors are in the opposite direction.

.Range . . . . . . . . . . . . Actual subtend . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Round off subtend mil . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Error
(yards) . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mil . . . . . . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . . . mil . . . . . . . . . . MOA . . . . . . . . . . . .mil
100 . . . . . . . . . . . 1.047" . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.534" . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00" . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.60" . . . . . . . . 0.047". . . . . . . . . . -0.066"
1000 . . . . . . . . . . 10.47" . . . . . . . . . . . . 35.34" . . . . . . . . . . .10.00" . . . . . . . . . . . . 36.0" . . . . . . . . .0.470". . . . . . . . . . -0.657"
2000 . . . . . . . . . . 20.94". . . . . . . . . . . . 70.69" . . . . . . . . . . .20.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .72.0" . . . . . . . . . 0.944". . . . . . . . . . -1.314"
3000 . . . . . . . . . . 31.41" . . . . . . . . . . . . 106.0" . . . . . . . . . . .30.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .108.0" . . . . . . . . .1.416". . . . . . . . . . .-1.971"
4000 . . . . . . . . . . 41.89" . . . . . . . . . . . . 141.4" . . . . . . . . . . .40.00" . . . . . . . . . . . .144.0" . . . . . . . . .1.888". . . . . . . . . . .-2.628"

Of course the only stuff shooting direct fire out to 4000 yards are tank guns, and they're shooting a tank-sized targets so 2-1/2 inches is a negligible error.
It might just be my phone, but this was hard to follow (format).
The add to this, while the error seems small regarding true MOA vs. IPHY and for true Mrad vs. Military mils, it add up per increase in distance and per unit of measure added in elevation or windage.
The difference in military mil vs. true mil is .65” for one mil at 1000 yards. A 175 gr SMK will need at least 11 mils elevation, which makes 7.15” difference. The same bullet will need about 38 MOA, 397.85”. An IPHY scope would only give you 380” for 38 “MOA”.
As far as I know, rifle scopes that use mrad all use true mrad (6283 in a full circle). While I have seen scopes that say 1/4” per hundred yards on the turrets, there have been scopes that use IPHY that are labeled MOA.
I would like to add before it comes up (unless I already missed it), because ‘mericans think I’m freedom units, you can shoot on ranges built in yards with mrad scopes. Mrad is not tied to meters.

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