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This is a discussion on Looking for XM-21 Expert within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by XM25Ren The mount was part of the total, I think it would be rare that they would switch out a scope from ...


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Old April 15th, 2020, 06:09 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by XM25Ren View Post
The mount was part of the total, I think it would be rare that they would switch out a scope from its original mount.

More often than not the two stayed together.

REN
Read again, last two words in the 2nd sentence.

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Old April 15th, 2020, 06:34 PM   #62
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Read again, last two words in the 2nd sentence.
I am sorry but I am in quarantine under bourbon influence, nothing I say now can be held against me.

But yes it appears as though we are on the same page!

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Old April 15th, 2020, 08:27 PM   #63
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There is another report on all sniper equipment sent to SEA in 1968, who got it, and their overall results and comments. I'll see if I can find that one again.
Interesting that in the summer of 1967 there were a total of ten XM21s in country.

Army Concept Team In Vietnam
Final Report
Sniper Operations and Equipment (U)
Active Project No. ACG-87/67I
23 February 1968

The purpose of the evaluation was to determine the organizational, doctrinal, and material requirements for sniper operations by U.S. Army units in the Republic of Vietnam (RVN).

In a message dated 19 April 1967, USARV announced plans for the conduct of an evaluation of sniper operations and equipment in Vietnam. Prior to that time several U.S. Army units had limited quantities of sniper equipment and had conducted sniper operations on a limited scale. Data was not available, however, to determine materiel and organizational requirements. To determine these requirements USARV requested specific sniper rifles Rnd telescopes from CONUS and developed plans to issue the equipment to all divisions and separate brigades in Vietnam on an equitable basis. Units participating in the evaluation were directed by USARV to develop their own training programs, organization, and concepts of employment.

DESCRIPTION OF MATERIEL

1. Rifle, M14, accurized, w/ M84 telescope (hereafter referred to as M14 w/M84). This rifle is of the same basic design as the standard M14 rifle, except as modified to eliminate the automatic firing capability and accurized by use of specially selected and fitted parts. The M84 is a two and one-half power telescope that was formerly mounted on the M1D sniper rifle.

2. Rifle, M14, National Match, w/LWL adjustable range telescope (hereafter referred to as M14 w/ART). This rifle is a National Match specification M14 modified to permit mounting of a modified commercial Redfield telescope. The telescope incorporates a camming principle in conjunction with the range finding capability inherent In the Redfield three to nine variable power "accurange" telescope. This feature automatically zeroes the telescope as the firer adjusts the range finder.

3. Rifle, M16 w/ Realist telescope (hereafter referred to as M16 w/Realist). This is the standard M16 rifle with a three power Realist commercial telescope. No modification of the rifle is required to mount the telescope.

4. Rifle, Winchester Model 70 This is a commercial sporting rifle chambered to fire .30-06 ammunition.

Setting of the Project

Environment: The evaluation was conducted in the highlands, the lowlands, the coastal plain, and the delta region of the Republic of Vietnam (RVN). Terrain in the evaluation area included mountains, plateaus, jungle, marshes, and cultivated plains. The climate of the areas ranges from semi-tropical in the highlands to tropical in the delta. Data collection took place during the summer monsoon, which blows generally from the southwest bringing heavy rains, high humidity, and tropical temperntures to the delta and southern RVN.

Military units: The 1st, 4th, 9th, and 25th Infantry Divisions, the 1st Cavalry Division, the 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division and the 196th and 199th Light Infantry Brigades participated in the evaluation. The 173d Airborne Brigade was issued sniper equipment but did not train nor employ snipers during the data collection period.

Distribution of Equipment

Figure 1 (below) presents a breakdown of the equipment obtained for the evaluation:

UNIT . . . . . . . . . . . M14 w/M84 . . . . . . M14 w/ART . . . . . . . . . M16 w/Realist . . . . . . . Winchester 70
1st Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
4th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
9th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 25 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
25th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
1st Cav Div . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
1st Bde 101st Abn Div . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8*
173d Abn Bde . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
196th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
199th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0

* These weapons were already in the possesion of the 1st Bde, 101st Abn Div.

Figure 1. Distribution of equipment.

Number of Snipers Employed

Each of the units listed in Figure 1, with the exception of the 173d Airborne Brigade, conducted sniper training during May and June 1967, and began actual employment of snipers by July. In a message to CG USARV in August 1967, the CG, 173d Airborne Brigade stated that operational commitments, personnel turrover, and the nature of the area of operations precluded training and employment of snipers during the evaluation period. Figure 2 (below) presents the number of snipers trained and employed by each unit durin, the evaluation period.

UNIT . . . . . . . . . . . M14 w/M84 . . . . M14 w/ART . . . . . . M16 w/Realist . . . . . Winchester 70 . . . . Total
1st Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 14 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . 77
4th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 14 . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . 29
9th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . 25 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . 58
25th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . 21
1st Cav Div . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . 13
1st Bde 101st Abn Div . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8 . . . . . . . . . . . 14
196th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . .15 . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . . . 22
199th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . 25

Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .102 . . . . . . . . . . .10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 139 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 . . . . . . . . . 259
Figure 2. Number of snipers trained and employed.

The differences between total equipment issued and equipment actually employed occurred for several reasons. As described in paragraph 2a, one brigade did not train or employ snipers. Two units, the 25th Infantry Division and 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, did not consider the M16 w/Realist an adequate sniper rifle and consequently did not employ it as extensively. (See paragraph C, Equipment.)

Effectiveness

KIA numbers are according to the reporting procedure of the unit concerned and are in all cases, by body count. Sniper man-days are days in actual combat operations.

UNIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MAN DAYS . . . . TARGETS ENGAGED . . . . . . KIA . . . . . WIA
1st Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1943 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . 0
4th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1848 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . .3
9th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 864 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3. . . . . . . . .4
25th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . .320 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1. . . . . . . . . 1
1st Cav Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 852 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10. . . . . . . .0
1st Bde 101st Abn Div . . . . . 293 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10. . . . . . . . 1
196th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . . . .519 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . .0
199th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . . . 873 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1. . . . . . . . .0

Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7512 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .124 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 . . . . . . . . 9
Figure 3. Result of Sniper Employment

Engagement Range

The range at which targets were engaged varied considerably between units. Units operating in the lowlands area north of Saigon reported the shortest ranges at which targets were engaged, while those operating primarily in the highlands, coastal, and delta areas reported longer ranges. Figure 4 presents ranges at which targets were detected and engaged.

UNIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Maximum Range (meters). . . . . . Average Range (Meters)
1st Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200
4th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .450. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250
9th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .550 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .400
25th Inf Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .350 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .250
1st Cav Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .350
1st Bde 101st Abn Div . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1300. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 900
196th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 900 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 550
199th Lt Inf Bde . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 550 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 450

Figure 4. Ranges of Combat Targets.

Limitations on Sniper Effectiveness

Two significant limitations were identified that restricted sniper effectiveness. These were vegetation and rules of engagement.

Vegetation. Questionnaires completed by 91 company officers throughout Vietnam contained data on limitations imposed by vegetation. Vegetation was considered as the most significant limitation by 92% of those officers. Company officers in units located in the lowlands north of Saigon reported vegetation to be a greater limitation than did those in units located in other areas of Vietnam. Vegetation presents the least limitation in the coastal plains and highly cultivated delta areas.

Rules of Engagement. The rules of engagement were considered a significant limitation by 44 percent of the company officers who completed questionnaires. The restrictions were generally the same in all units. Approximately 70 percent of these officers stated that the sniper must either see the suspected enemy firing at friendly troops or have approval from his squad or platoon leader before firing.

User Evaluation

RIFLE/TELESCOPE . . . . NUMBER . . . . . CONSIDER SATISFACTORY . . . CONSIDER UNSATISFACTORY
M14 w/M84 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74% . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26%
M16 w/REALIST . . . . . . . . . 35 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48% . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52%
M14 w/ART . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100%
WINCHESTER Model 70 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18% . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82%

Figure 12. User Opinion of Equipment.

Sniper Selection Criteria

FM 23-71 states that the following criteria should be considered in selecting personnel for sniper training:
(1) High power competitive rifle experience.
(2) Small bore competitive experience.
(3) Pistol competitive experience.
(4) High score on known distance range.
(5) High score on trainfire range.
(6) A desire to learn to shoot.

The USMC Advanced Marksmarship Tralning Program, MTU LP#J24, states some additional sniper prerequisites to be considered, including

(1) Good physical condition, particularly, uncorrected good vision.
(2) Emotional stability.
(3) High degree of proficiency in basic military subjects.

Figure 16 presents some background factors concerning 87 snipers selected at random from all units in Vietnam.

FACTOR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DATA
(1) Average length of service . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 months

(2) Prior advanced marksmanship experience:
(a) Military rifle team . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 percent
(b) Civilian rifle team . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 percent
(c) Prior sniper training or experience . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 percent
(d) None . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 percent

(3) Most recent qualification:
(a) Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 percent
(b) Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 percent
(c) Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 percent

(4) Volunteered for sniper training . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 percent

Figure 16. Sniper Background Data.

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Old April 16th, 2020, 03:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ted Brown View Post
I put one of my best looking rifles up and you like the transit box? Oh well... I made the box using military hardware from a 105mm artillery shell box. The label on the inside of the lid is the Basic Issue Items list. I also have a nomenclature label on the outside:

1005-00-179-0300
US RIFLE CAL. 7.62MM M21 W/E
9386973
SER. NO. 3000
1.83 CF
36 LBS.

My plan is make a skinnier box for it. I'd like to get the total weight down some.
Sorry Ted, the beauty of the rifle and the quality of the build go without question. Your reputation precedes you so I didn't feel it needed to be commented one. The box is the 1st one I've seen done for an M14. Yeah, I've seen many of the Brit sniper rifle boxes..

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Old April 16th, 2020, 03:38 PM   #65
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Just an FYI regarding # 2 in DESCRIPTION OF MATERIEL posted by Lysander above. It uses the acronym "LWL". It stands for Limited Weapons Laboratory.
I know there are at least 2 pics out there of AR-TEL scope/mount sets and LWL is marked on the mount along with the last 4 of the rifles SN.

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Old April 16th, 2020, 03:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by edgartwib View Post


I also have this SAK barrel installed on my SEI match rifle I had Croc build years back. Its all USGI SA parts with NM mods. It would be a good M-21 clone canidate...








I do have this paperweight as well...


I would have given a testicle for that mount 5 years ago. Thankfully 'with age comes wisdom' but boy oh boy.

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Old May 12th, 2020, 08:35 AM   #67
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I can't thank you all enough for the info. There's probably enough here for me to dig through to compile the report. I appreciate it.

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Old May 12th, 2020, 11:47 AM   #68
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I’m fairly certain (memory) that is an early, painted McMillan stock in the photo of this late M21.
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Old May 12th, 2020, 12:32 PM   #69
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I have studied that picture, and I am skeptical its a McMillan, and I think its a wood stock that has been painted black. Why? Per Emerson's book, I am under the impression that McMillan made the first M1A fiberglass stocks for the USMC to try out in 1981 on their match M14s. I am skeptical that Big Army would allow a combat weapon (M21) to be be fielded with such a stock that quickly (1982), as they would have to evaluate and test it first...which takes time. On a competition weapon like the USMC match M14s, its a different situation. Big Army doesn't allow modifications to combat weapons without testing and an updated Technical Manual, etc.

The rifle still has the AR TEL scope, with the ART II's coming into the supply system in December 1981. Perhaps Ted Brown can chime-in, but I have heard the M21 Technical Package was updated in 1984, presumably to allow the medium weight barrels as an alternative to the standard weight barrels, but I have not seen evidence that the regular Army allowed McMillan Fiberglass stocks. They might have, but I think 1982 is too early re timelines...what would answer the question is someone with a copy of the 1984 updated technical info re M21 build procedures. My 2cts.


Last edited by Random Guy; May 13th, 2020 at 05:23 AM.
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Old May 12th, 2020, 12:40 PM   #70
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I have studied that picture, and I am skeptical its a McMillan, and I think its a wood stock that has been painted black. Why? Per Emerson's book, I am under the impression that McMillan made the first M1A fiberglass stocks for the USMC to try out in 1981 on their match M14s. I am skeptical that Big Army would allow a combat weapon (M21) to be be fielded with such a stock that quickly (1982), as they would have to evaluate and test it first...which takes time. On a competition weapon like the USMC match M14s, its a different situation. Big Army doesn't allow modifications to combat weapons without testing an an updated Technical Manual, etc.



The rifle still has the AR TEL scope, with the ART II's coming into the supply system in December 1981. Perhaps Ted Brown can chime-in, but I have heard the M21 Technical Package was updated in 1984, presumably to allow the medium weight barrels as an alternative to the standard weight barrels, but I have not seen evidence that the regular Army allowed McMillan Fiberglass stocks. They might have, but I think 1982 is too early re timelines...what would answer the question is someone with a copy of the 1984 updated technical info re M21 build procedures. My 2cts.
You very well may be right, I did state ďmemoryĒ. With that said, I remember reading, somewhere (Iíll check), the individual in the image stating it was him in the picture, and that it was a McM.

Iíll see what I can dig up.

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Old May 12th, 2020, 01:14 PM   #71
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A forum member noted this about that 1982 picture: "That picture is of David Liwanag, he would later become OIC of the AMU at Ft Benning as a Lt. Col. I believe." That's all I know...

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Old May 18th, 2020, 03:50 AM   #72
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A forum member noted this about that 1982 picture: "That picture is of David Liwanag, he would later become OIC of the AMU at Ft Benning as a Lt. Col. I believe." That's all I know...
I could not locate any information in all the literature I have, I checked. I recollect reading about this rifle/person on another forum discussing the M21.

My recollection is; he stated it was an M21 with a medium pattern bbl. and McMillan stock.

Sorry, thatís all I have.

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Old May 18th, 2020, 04:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by CaissonSeven View Post
I could not locate any information in all the literature I have, I checked. I recollect reading about this rifle/person on another forum discussing the M21.

My recollection is; he stated it was an M21 with a medium pattern bbl. and McMillan stock.

Sorry, thatís all I have.
My understanding is that it was 1st posted on the arfcom forum.

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Old May 18th, 2020, 04:52 AM   #74
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My understanding is that it was 1st posted on the arfcom forum.
Yes, and if memory serves; the conversation was something to the effect that the M21 wasnít built w/ medium pattern bbl. & McM stock. He provided a photo stating it was him in the image and in fact it was. It was the rifle he was holding.

Pretty darn sure.

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Old May 18th, 2020, 01:10 PM   #75
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I don't recall the exact year, but somewhere around the mid 80's I looked over some M21 rifles rom the NGMTU at Camp Robinson. They included medium weight barrels, walnut stocks, and ART II scopes.

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