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This is a discussion on Looking for XM-21 Expert within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by M1Army I agree Ren! I worked with Ted Brown and I had him build my XM21 Replica Project. This was the first ...


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Old April 12th, 2020, 09:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by M1Army View Post
I agree Ren!

I worked with Ted Brown and I had him build my XM21 Replica Project. This was the first rifle I had professionally built after I procured all of the parts. The main objective was to complete the build as close as possible to the required standards for the XM21 which was accomplished. I did all of the stock work on the orginal Springfield Armory Heavy Walnut stock to emulate what a Sniper may have done in country after the rifle was issued with supplies he was able to find.

AmericanSheepDog - I have some documents I will dig up that may be good for your project. I will try to find them quickly.

M1Army


That is awesome!!!

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Old April 12th, 2020, 09:26 AM   #32
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Got this ARTEL on the cheap. Was in pretty bad shape. The good thing is they are just Gen2 Redfields. Took it apart, changed all the glass and erector out with parts from a new in box Gen2 Redfield I picked up for $50. Only tricky part was removing the crosshair assembly and rangefinder from the old erector and installing in the new erector. Everything else is same exact parts except the custom turret base and turned down magnification ring. While I had it apart, I completely re-anodized it to the original matte black
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Old April 12th, 2020, 09:27 AM   #33
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Old April 12th, 2020, 10:21 AM   #34
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LT, call Les and ask if he'd allow it, we'll set up a tentative date, I'll make SURE I get time off and Nicky and I will go up with all the proper tools and cleaning supplies (and camera) and we'll "do her right".

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Old April 12th, 2020, 01:23 PM   #35
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If anyone goes to the West Point museum to meet with the curator, please ask about taking a few pics of Chuck Karwan's M14, if possible. I don't think its on display, but it is unique and some color pics would be interesting. Here's how he described it in an article: https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...RfAipZRahLR8t7

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After about a half year in the jungle, running combat patrols, I got promoted to company executive officer. It didn't take long before I discovered that the division sniper detachment was largely manned by gun enthusiasts like myself. After we got to be friends, they gave me a customized M14 that one of their armorers had built using a standard M14 barreled action.

It was glass-bedded into an M14E2 pistol grip stock with the front hand grip removed and a standard M14 buttplate fitted. My customized M14 had a quick detachable Griffin & Howe type scope mount base on the left side. I had an old Korean War-vintage M84 scope sight in rings that could be attached in an instant. That rifle shot beautifully and was my almost constant companion for most of the rest of my tour. Indeed, the only other rifle I ever carried in combat was an XM21 sniper rifle
...any pics that could be taken of that rifle would be interesting.
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Old April 13th, 2020, 06:06 AM   #36
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Recent XM21 replica of West Point museum rifle

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If you can come up with a M21 ART scope I can build you the rifle. Check out my web site. I just completed one a couple of months ago for a forum member. I'm working on an M21 with an ART II now. The ART II is much easier to get and doesn't cost as much.
Since Ted Brown mentioned a recently completed XM21 project, and it also happens to be a replica of the West Point Museum's XM-21 with camo paint, here's some pics and info for anyone interested. (Note: This is not my rifle, but it belongs to another forum member who said I could post some pics since its germane to this thread):

Quote:
XM-21 build (early SAI '5-line' receiver in the 58k range), Ted mounted a NOS SAK 7791362 NM barrel dated 6 67 (headspaced at 1.632"). New TRW bolt. All build parts are USGI except bolt guts. M1Army restored a 'SA 4' stamped stock and painted the West Point camo pattern on the stock and handguard. Ted bedded stock and mounted the AR Tel scope. I look forward to heading to the range with this one.
...Its quite impressive and unique looking, IMO. Ted Brown and M1Army do nice work on these projects.
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Last edited by Random Guy; April 13th, 2020 at 09:21 AM.
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Old April 13th, 2020, 07:37 AM   #37
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Man, I’ve got to get me one of those... how much does it cost to build one? Or rather, let’s say I wanted to have one built, what would I pay? And it looks good, just needs more wear on the stock . That was one of the things I found most interesting about the West Point rifle. You can see where the shooter’s hands and face wore through the paint.

And I will contact Les once the report is done. We are coming up on a year since I visited. I believe I should have it in hand before asking for any more favors.

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Old April 13th, 2020, 07:40 AM   #38
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I agree Ren!

AmericanSheepDog - I have some documents I will dig up that may be good for your project. I will try to find them quickly.

M1Army

Thank you Sir.

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Old April 13th, 2020, 09:31 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by AmericanSheepDog View Post
Man, Iíve got to get me one of those... how much does it cost to build one? Or rather, letís say I wanted to have one built, what would I pay? And it looks good, just needs more wear on the stock . That was one of the things I found most interesting about the West Point rifle. You can see where the shooterís hands and face wore through the paint.

And I will contact Les once the report is done. We are coming up on a year since I visited. I believe I should have it in hand before asking for any more favors.
Depends on how close to the definite article you want to be, mine is at $7000.00 and itís not built yet.

REN

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Old April 13th, 2020, 09:46 AM   #40
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Depends on how close to the definite article you want to be, mine is at $7000.00 and itís not built yet.

REN
I figured as much... sigh lol.

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Old April 14th, 2020, 09:05 AM   #41
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Hmmm, I have an SAK-NM barrel with unitized gas cylinder still attached. The fellow I got it from years ago said it was from a m-21. I never thought much of it until I read this post. I'll dig it out and take some pics.

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Old April 14th, 2020, 07:19 PM   #42
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The initial XM21s appear to be somewhat of a disappointment, at least to APG.

Final Report of Engineer Design Test of Sniper System XM21, Caliber 7.62mm NATO (Modified M14 Rifle with Telescopic Sight), Date of tests Sept - Nov 1971:

INITIAL INSPECTION
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Average . . . . . . .Average . . . . . . . . Fore end . . . . . . . Bedding . . . . . . Lateral . . . . . . . Upper . .
WPN . . . . . . Headspace . . . . . . . Trigger . . . . . . . Bore Dia . . . . . . . . Preload . . . . . . . Compound . . . . . Receiver . . . . . . Handguard . . . . . Optical
No. . . . . . . . . . . in . . . . . . . . . . . . .Pull, lbs . . . . . Land . . . Groove . . . . . .lbs . . . . . . . . . . . Cracks . . . . . . Movement. . . . . Movement . . . . . Parallax

Criteria Limits
. . . . . . . . . . . . 1.633 . . . . . . . . . 4.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3002 . . 0.3075 . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . Not ----------------------> > > > >
. . . . . . . . . . . . 1.636 . . . . . . . . . 4.75 . . . . . . . . . 0.3008 . . 0.3085 . . . . . . 15 . . . . . . . . . . . . Allowed

1 . . . . . . . . . . 1.634 . . . . . . . . . . 5.30 . . . . . . . . . 0.3006 . . 0.3080 . . . . . . 22 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X
2 . . . . . . . . . . 1.637 . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3083 . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X
3 . . . . . . . . . . 1.636 . . . . . . . . . . 5.00 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3082 . . . . . . 13 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
4 . . . . . . . . . . 1.636 . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3009 . . 0.3081 . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X
5 . . . . . . . . . . 1.635 . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3009 . . 0.3081 . . . . . . 22 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
6 . . . . . . . . . . 1.633 . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3008 . . 0.3080 . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
7 . . . . . . . . . . 1.635 . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3009 . . 0.3082 . . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
8 . . . . . . . . . . 1.635 . . . . . . . . . . 5.40 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3084 . . . . . . 29 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
9 . . . . . . . . . . 1.634 . . . . . . . . . . 5.00 . . . . . . . . . 0.3008 . . 0.3081 . . . . . . 27 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
10. . . . . . . . . . 1.636 . . . . . . . . . . 6.00 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3084 . . . . . . 21 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
11. . . . . . . . . . 1.631. . . . . . . . . . . 5.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3084 . . . . . . 03 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
12. . . . . . . . . . 1.632 . . . . . . . . . . 4.50 . . . . . . . . . 0.3014 . . 0.3086 . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X
13. . . . . . . . . . 1.632 . . . . . . . . . . 5.30 . . . . . . . . . 0.3012 . . 0.3085 . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X
14. . . . . . . . . . 1.634 . . . . . . . . . . 6.00 . . . . . . . . . 0.3010 . . 0.3082 . . . . . . 00 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X
15. . . . . . . . . . 1.636 . . . . . . . . . . 4.30 . . . . . . . . . 0.3014 . . 0.3084 . . . . . . 08 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X

No. Within . . .11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 (a) . . . . . 0 (a) . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . 1
Limits

a) The allowable maximum variations in dimension within a barrel (0.0003 of land and 0.001 for groove diameters, respectively) and/or direction of dimensional tapering were not within specification limits.

NOTE - An "X" indicates a failure to meet test criteria.

The dispersion results were analyzed with regard to ammunition and weapon criteria. Based on the average extreme spread figure of the ammunition, obtained with the three Mann barrels, the 2.9-inch average for the 15 XM21 weapons was 2.1 times greater. The average extreme spread allowed for the XM21 system at 300 meters cannot be greater than 2.5 inches more than the average extreme spread for the ammunition when fired from the Mann barrels at that same range. Based on this criterion and linearly extrapolating the 100-yard ammunition test results to the 300-meter range, the maximum allowable system dispersion is 7.1 inches. None of the weapons met this criterion; the actual extreme spread was from 7.5 to 12.6 inches.

After completion of the accuracy test, the five weapons selected for use in the high temperature - humidity test were prepared by thoroughly cleaning the bore and chamber. These weapons and ammunition were then introduced into the test environment for a period of 10 days. Test firing for determination of accuracy - dispersion characteristics was performed on the first, third, fifth, eighth, and tenth days of conditioning. One 10-round target was fired with each of the weapons in the morning and afternoon on each of the aforementioned five firing days. After all firing was completed on the tenth day, the weapons were removed from the environment and conditioned at ambient temperatures for a day prior to firing three 10-round targets with +70įF temperature-conditioned ammunition at 100 yards range. The results of this test are presented in Table 4-V. This table shows that during the environmental conditioning period of 10 days, the changes in extreme spread, mean radius, and horizontal center-of-impact (CI) measurements are relatively small compared to the vertical CI changes.

[The average vertical change of impact ranged from 2.4" with WPN #15 to 8.0" with WPN #9. Only WPNs 7, 8, 9, 10, 15 tested.]

Although the stocks of the five weapons were sealed by vacuum impregnation with epoxy resin, this treatment did not prevent expansion of the wood grain and attendant separation of the bedding compound at the back of the stock - receiver area. There also was cracking of the bedding compound in the area of the frontal bridge of the stock. This appears to be caused by the compound in that area being of too thin a cross section to adequately support the front end of the receiver.

5. CONCLUSIONS:

a. The optical component of the XM21 sniper system performs satisfactorily in environments of high temperature - humidity, +125įF, -25įF, and ambient range temperatures.

b. Durability of the stock bedding compound is inadequate to prevent cracking.

c. Fore-end preload causes an undesirable change of the vertical CI of shot groups.

d. The method of determining acceptable extreme spread for the weapons allows too much latitude for poor dispersion, in the event that Mann barrels are used which exhibit large extreme spreads.

e. The M14 National Match rifle rebuilt to USAMTU standards does not satisfy the rebuild criteria dimensionally.

Test Materiel Utilization

WPN No . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Telescope. . . . . . . Type of
APG . . . . . . Serial #. . . . . . . Serial No . . . . . . . Weapon

1 . . . . . . . . . 82275 . . . . . . . . 0651 . . . . . . . . . . . . New
2 . . . . . . . . . . 5709 . . . . . . . . 1653. . . . . . . . . . . . New
3 . . . . . . . . . 62253 . . . . . . . . 1213. . . . . . . . . . . . New
4 . . . . . . . . 129966 . . . . . . . . 0215. . . . . . . . . . . . New
5 . . . . . . . 1343322 . . . . . . . . 0682. . . . . . . . . . . . New
6 . . . . . . . 1203828 . . . . . . . . 0343. . . . . . . . . . . . New
7 . . . . . . . .463324 . . . . . . . . 0777. . . . . . . . . . . . New
8 . . . . . . . . . 92401 . . . . . . . . 1123. . . . . . . . . . . . New
9 . . . . . . . . 496051 . . . . . . . . 1137. . . . . . . . . . . . New
10 . . . . . . . . . 6126 . . . . . . . . 1047. . . . . . . . . . . . New
11 . . . . . . . . 82268 . . . . . . . . 0808. . . . . . . . . . . Rebuilt
12 . . . . . . . 416240 . . . . . . . . 1530. . . . . . . . . . . Rebuilt
13 . . . . . . . 203397 . . . . . . . . 0906. . . . . . . . . . . Rebuilt
14 . . . . . . . 1116712 . . . . . . . . 0920. . . . . . . . . . . Rebuilt
15 . . . . . . 1454459 . . . . . . . . 0662. . . . . . . . . . . Rebuilt

[New rifles are rifles that completed conversion in 1969 to XM21 standards then placed in storage until drawn for testing. Rebuilds were weapons returned from SEA and rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal.]


Last edited by lysander; April 14th, 2020 at 08:28 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2020, 07:56 PM   #43
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Addenda:

Dispersion avgerage extreme spread at 100 and 300 meters (measured simultaneously):

WPN #1 - 3.00" & 9.10"
WPN #2 - 2.40" & 7.50"
WPN #3 - 3.00" & 9.50"
WPN #4 - 2.60" & 8.30"
WPN #5 - 3.00" & 9.50"
WPN #6 - 2.40" & 7.90"
WPN #7 - 2.60" & 8.10"
WPN #8 - 2.50" & 7.90"
WPN #9 - 3.30" & 10.20"
WPN #10 - 3.00" & 9.20"
WPN #11 - 2.50" & 8.40"
WPN #12 - 2.40" & 8.00"
WPN #13 - 3.20" & 10.80"
WPN #14 - 3.80" & 12.60"
WPN #15 - 3.20" & 10.30"

Further notes:

None of the stocks pictured were painted, which are #s 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 (#s 7, 8, 9, 10, 15 all cracked under the buttplate, or at the toe, during the hi-temp/humidity test, BTW).
I have two other reports on the ART scope and the XM21, one on shock (recoil) testing of the scope and the other on the ergonomics, both from 1970, and used 1969 built weapons, neither of these have painted stocks pictured.


Last edited by lysander; April 14th, 2020 at 08:49 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2020, 08:17 PM   #44
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lysander,

The XM21 used a standard weight NM barrel (TRW, SA & SAK) - the report above references

"Three Mann barrels"
"fired from the Mann barrels"
"In the event Mann barrels are used which exhibit large extreme spreads"

Do you know the definition of the term "Mann Barrel?" I am not familiar with this term.

Also XM21's - I thought were in service in 1969 so were these rifles that were in service and came back in and were tested? Based on the comments related to bedding I thought this might be the case?

I hope this isn't something I should know?

Thanks, M1Army

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Old April 14th, 2020, 08:34 PM   #45
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As I understand it, Mann barrels were mounted stationary 03 receivers with a full heavy profile (1-1/4 +-) possibly. The army used them for accuracy testing. These were even sold as surplus by Civilian Marksmanship Program a few years ago. Seems like they were about $500-550. Hopes this helps.

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