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Springfield Armory 3rd & 4th Gen scope mount problems.

This is a discussion on Springfield Armory 3rd & 4th Gen scope mount problems. within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Nice piece,early AWC Bracket and a M1C Griffin and Howe Mount for a M84 scope setup used in the early days of vietnam....


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Old August 6th, 2018, 04:08 AM   #61
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Nice piece,early AWC Bracket and a M1C Griffin and Howe Mount for a M84 scope setup used in the early days of vietnam.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 04:30 AM   #62
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Here's a period pic or 2:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marine sniper.jpg (161.0 KB, 125 views)
File Type: jpg pre xm21.jpg (983.2 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg M84.jpg (119.4 KB, 113 views)

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Old August 6th, 2018, 04:32 AM   #63
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The G&H scope bases will often have the serial number of an M1C it was taken off of.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 05:54 AM   #64
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Quote:
I was told this is an early M14 mount and would love to hear your thoughts on it.
The bottom part is the Army Weapons Command or AWC mount (probably reproduction part) and the top part is an original USGI Griffen & Howe (G&H) M1C scope base with vintage 7/8" G&H rings, leftover from the WWII era and used on an M14 circa late 1960s.

Quote:
"Thanks for any info you can offer on it."
Well, I have been studying the AWC mounts this year as I am building a close replica of a 1967-68 M14 sniper with AWC mount, so please forgive the mini-dissertation on this topic, but since you asked, here's what I know about that mount and its general history:

The 4 digits on the scope base were likely the last 4 digits of the M14 rifle that it was attached to back in the late 1960s (probably 1967 or 1968). The issue here - at least from a collector's perspective? The lower scope mount base is easy to replicate, and some reproduction AWC mounts were made in the 1970s. Some units have a small "ordnance bomb" engraved on the lower left hand corner of the mount, but some do not. Regarding Toolmanm203's mount - the milling for the small vertical mating surface/tab on the backside of your mount is very different than mine, and I suspect your mount (bottom part) is a reproduction. Please compare the backside of this original with your picture #2, and you can see the obvious differences in the machining.



Its not a big deal, but I'm pretty sure the slot in your large knob is probably not original either, and most likely a commercial Springfield Armory, Inc part that came off their Gen II or Gen III mounts, presumably substituted for the original mounting knob that was lost over time. No biggie, but worth noting. (Some folks may not be too concerned about the original vs reproduction AWC part, and thus I hope Toolmanm203 don't mind me pointing out these observations, as again, I have been studying this topic somewhat lately...)

The neat part is that the top of the mount - an original G&H base with vintage 7/8" rings, as it is definitely a legitimate/ original USGI part that dates back to late WWII and was re-purposed for use on the M14 in the 1967 time period. It has been parkerized (looks like a long time ago - and I wish I had that part for my project as I plan to use a repo part from Numrich). Originally G&H mounts were made in 1944-45 and were blued, but by 1967 many military parts like that were re-furbished and parkerized, as that finish is more durable than bluing - which was important in places like Vietnam due to the wet climate.

Anyhow, here's the 2 variations of the knobs used on the original AWC mount, according to Peter Senich's excellent book, The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping (1988), page 247.



All the mounts I have seen appear to be missing the "wavy washer" behind the large knob, and presumably a small "c" type washer on the backside. I had a machinst buddy order the missing "wavy washer" for my AWC mount, and you can just barely see the washer in this vintage picture. (Also note that these mounts came both blued and parkerized):



General History of the AWC mount: According to Senich's book The Long-Range War (1996), Rock Island Arsenal records show that 125 match prepped M14s with M84 scope were sent to Vietnam in March 1967. In addition, Rock Island Arsenal's records also show that year they shipped 425 "prototype M14 mounts" to Vietnam, and I think 352 M84 scopes, presumably most of the scopes went on M14s, but some could have been mounted on M1Ds and maybe other weapons. So approx 550 AWC mounts were sent to Vietnam in the 1967-1968 period. Some of us call these "pre-XM21" sniper rifles as the XM21 were feilded a year or so later in Vietnam (late 1968, and adopted in Sept 1969).

Here's a picture an AWC set-up being used in Vietnam circa 1968, note how the scope is off-set to the left:



The little 2.2x power scope offered only minimal target resolution and the offset nature of the scope made range adjustments a challenge as you had to know you what distance you zero'd the scope (ie, 400 yards) and then make left windage adjustments for any shots under 400 yds and you had to make right windage adjustment for shots over 400 yards - regardless of the wind factor... Quirkly, but that's was they used to preserve teh ability to load the weapon from the top via stripper clips, etc. (same issue applies to the old M1C and M1D sniper rifles).

Here's a pic of forum member "CASS" who has a very nice XM21 replica on top, and an equally nice 'pre-XM21' with AWC set-up and M84 scope on the bottom. These excellent replicas represent to the two 'official' M14-based sniper rifles used in Vietnam circa 1967 to the end of the conflict.



FWIW, I am in the process of building a replica of a "pre-XM21" sniper rifle as well. I got my AWC mount recently (blued version, original finish, but of course missing the 'wavy washer' behind the knob). Here's two pics:





...happy to find original mount, but due to cost, I plan on using a reproduction G&H scope base and rings as the originals are rare and deserve to be on M1Cs to the extent possible, with some exceptions of course (like the parkerized versions)
I hope that info helps, as that's about all I know re the AWC mount with G&H scope rings and M84 scope set-up.

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Last edited by Random Guy; August 6th, 2018 at 01:23 PM. Reason: typos & clarifications
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Old August 6th, 2018, 06:20 AM   #65
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Thanks for the great info guys I also found 2 M84 scopes in the stash, an M82, 2 M1C scopes and an early experimental 4x Art II that was rejected by the marines because they insisted on the 3x9. That one I have to do some homework on because I only know of one other that exists.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 06:35 AM   #66
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Outstanding Random Guy. Thanks for putting that together.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 06:46 AM   #67
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Quote:
Thanks for the great info guys I also found 2 M84 scopes in the stash, an M82, 2 M1C scopes and an early experimental 4x Art II that was rejected by the marines because they insisted on the 3x9. That one I have to do some homework on because I only know of one other that exists.
Wow, that was quite a stash of vintage optics(!). If you have a spare M84 in excellent shape that you can live without, please keep me in mind as I need one for my project.

An experimental 4x ART II? Would really like to see pics of that item. (I like to learn about vintage military optics, and I have even began some study of vintage military Binoculars too).

The Long-Range War by Senich (pages 107-120) has a pretty good history of Jim Leatherwood, who helped develop the original AR-TEL scopes when he was in the Army from 1965-1968. After he retired (I think) around 1969 he spent the next 10 years trying to get the Army to buy his various scopes and thereby ensure his company's success. They tested what became the ART II in Aberdeen Proving Ground as early as 1977 as seen in Senich's book, but they didn't get around to directly buying them until June 1980...at least that is what I have read about him and his company down in Texas.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 07:12 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
Here's a period pic or 2:
Lower left of pic with blonde(good form), are those .357 mag rounds in a pistol belt?

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Old August 6th, 2018, 08:17 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
Here's a period pic or 2:
Good pictures. The first one illustrates the correct NM stock well with a view of the left side...

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Old August 6th, 2018, 08:32 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich D View Post
Lower left of pic with blonde(good form), are those .357 mag rounds in a pistol belt?
Looks like it. Revolver rounds in a leather belt with a holster. -Lloyd

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Old August 6th, 2018, 08:55 AM   #71
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Apologizes for digressing...

Majikani,
Can you elaborate on this comment re that 1st pic? What details did you note? Thanks.
Quote:
The first one illustrates the correct NM stock well with a view of the left side...
For my pre-XM21 replica, I am using my only pre-1968 NM stock w/ the original bedding and tight-lock-up, as the "match-prepped" M14s w/ M84 sent over in March 1967 would presumably have used the original NM stocks (1962-1967) and not all the mods that the AMU developed in the summer of 1968 (e.g, more bedding/liner mod/ferrule mod, etc). The area under the buttplate in my stock only has a large "1" below the cleaning kit hole, but I think its an original SA NM stock based on characteristics, but regardless of maker, its definitely a early NM stock.

What do you think?

Early bedding top, no liner mods (circa original NM program 1962-1967):


Early bedding bottom (serifed P mark very faint/worn):


Serial # on channel (I think from early SA NM M14 range, 1962?):


...my other USGI stocks for my XM21 and late M21 are "fat" SAs, but for my pre-XM21 I'm going with my only "skinny" NM stock...I think its correct for this project, but you are the stock expert so your input is appreciated.

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Last edited by Random Guy; August 6th, 2018 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Omitted 1 superflorus picture
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Old August 6th, 2018, 09:11 AM   #72
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All my early SA NM stocks have the SA stamped in the butt area,grease penciled numbers in the channel,pin prick ferrule staked and un modified,DAS and proof P with the small winged NM stamp below the P.It has minimal bedding and the liner is not modded,i will post some pics when i return back to AZ,Matt has the exact same stock im talking about also.

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Old August 6th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #73
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William, look at the bolt stop cut out. The following is only my understanding and I am not an expert. Pre 1963, match stocks were regular walnut stocks that had nice straight grain and enough "meat" for bedding which were hand selected and match prepped. This is the category I would put your very nice stock in. In the 1963 - 1964 time frame the 11010263 (what we call Big Reds) and 11010282 NM stocks came out which were heavier. The NM stocks and the big reds are very similar but not the same. A point of interest is that both my NM stocks have a very small D.O.D. Eagle stamp by the P on the heel. I believe NM rifles in the 1965-1968 era used these stocks and the ones sent over in 1968 with AWS mounts and M84 scopes would have used these stocks, identifiable by the deep bolt stop cut out extending down to the liner screw hole, a discernable amount of wood under the front ferrule, a heavier build than the regular stocks and some other more subtle features. This is just my 2 cents worth...

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Old August 6th, 2018, 11:07 AM   #74
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Majikani,
Thanks for that info. I think you are right that my stock is the early type circa 1962. Re your two NM stocks, do they have the minimal off-white bedding, and un-modified ferrule and liner? Just curious. (the little eagle stamp by the P is an interesting little stamp, as it shows up on late M1 NM rifle too).

Here's is what I presume would have been used on the pre-XM21 (per the Feb 23, 1968 dated US Army TM for NM M14s; 9-1005--223-12P)

Quote:
Wood stock subassembly, National Match
Part #11010282
NSN: 1005-00-912-3711
M14 NM stock subassembly includes stock, ferrule, stock liner, liner screws and routing, replaced 7791175, original drawing dated June 1964
I did use the fat or 'big red' SA wlanuts for my XM21 & M21s, which have the larger bolt cut-out that you discussed (Since this pic both stocks sent off for bedding in Bisonite with the SAI receiver).



Again, aplogizes for digressing away from the AWC topic, but here's a well-known pic in Senich's book of an AWC set-up, and painted camo.


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Last edited by Random Guy; August 6th, 2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2018, 12:50 PM   #75
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RG, we should move this if discussing it further. Post 1964 they modified the front stock ferrule and liner. Same minimal bedding as on your stock.

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