M14 Forum

NWIeng

First off, since this is a question for Vets, let me express my thankfulness for your service to our country. Having not served myself, all I can do humbly ask the following questions out of curiosity.

After reading 'The Gun' by CJ Chivers (http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chiver...5848145&sr=8-1), I was curious about the reason so many people here love the M14.

For those who haven't read it, it is primarily a book about the invention and proliferation of the AK-47, but a good portion of the tail end goes into the shortcomings of the M-16 when it was first rolled out in Vietnam.

The author does not pull any punches on the M-16, and details horrendous accounts of massive corrosion and a ridiculous failure to EVERYTHING rate pertaining to the early issued rifles. Everything pertaining to the lack of corrosion protection on critical components to the lack of proper propellant used in early 5.56 cartridges. And the subsequent cover up by Colt and other parties.

The author briefly glosses over the M14, basically describing it as the 'last of its kind'. In that it was America's last steel and wood rifle, despite it being magazine fed and capable of FA fire.

I'm certain there are plenty of Vietnam Vets on these boards who love their M14's to this day.

So my question is spefically for the Vets, why do you love your M14's?

Is it was the rifle you went through basic training with? My brother is currently readying to deploy to Afghanistan and looking back he has said that basic was the most fun training he's ever had. So I could see how one going through basic would have certain bonds with the people and hardware they went through there with.

Or God forbid, were you one of the unfortunate soldiers who had to witness first hand the problems with the M16 described above? Wishing you had the rifle you went through basic with.


As a recreational shooter owning both the AR-15 and M1A, I truly enjoy shooting my M1A more, and could see how you would like your M14's more for that reason alone.

Thank you Vets for your service and any insight you can provide. I'm very curious to see some validation for the author's comments on the early shortcomings of our current rifle.

Whatsinaname181

Lots of reasons.

I used the M14 rifle in combat operations in Iraq, as a shooter on a team.

First off, it fires a 7.62x51 nato. 5.56 lacks good penitration of structures (brick, sinderblock, etc). It also does a number on soft targets and reliably "knocks down" even at extended ranges. With this caliber you can make small holes into big holes. It is also inherently accurate, and you can bum rounds off the 240 gunner in a pinch. M80 ball is decent, M118LR is the stuff to have.

Secondly, the rifle is very sound. Reliable in all aspects of its operation. It runs clean, even in the dusty desert and can suffer neglect and still be functional. Aside from major depo level maintainence, it requires little service to maintain functionality.

Next, its semi-automatic. One reason why i loved the M14 so much is that it allowed me to maintain precision, but gave me enough "scunion" to back it up should we get into a fight. I love the M24, but for urban environments and working in small teams/elements, i prefer the M14 in its capacity as a "precision" platform. The rack grade i had was more than adiquate to engage man sized targets at 6-800 meters, and the M14NM was more than suffcient to engage targets up to 800+. But again, most combat in urban areas takes place between 50-300 meters, so that is why i prefer the M14.

We borrowed a complete SR-25 system from some of the guys we worked with, and i love that rifle. Mostly, we did it because the SR had a can. BUT, i can say that after 3-4magazines, or in not maintained tip-top, it succumbs to FTLIB, and even FTE. Forward assist becomes nessecary. Rarely with the M14 have i ever had to push the bolt into battery.

After that, its pretty. i like the way it looks.

Its older brother helped stomp the monkey stuff outta multiple enemies on several continents.

Its never failed me. The only time i ever had an issue with it is when the hammer failed to recock one time in a firefight. i just racked the bolt and continued with what i was doing.

Dead all day



SSG K.

RAMMAC

I've had small pebbles lock up my trigger in the M16A2. I've had rust start to build in the chamber of my M16A2 within a week when we were in Kuwait. The short sight radius of the M16A2 makes sight alignment critical when you engage a target at more than 300 meters. If you bolt carrier seizes up on the AR style rifles you're pretty much done. I've actually watched inversion layers in the desert push a 5.56mm bullet up and down. A standard military grade, well used AR style rifle isn't worth a damn in the desert past about 250 meters or so.

I've never had any of those problems, issues, or complaints with the M14 style rifle. In addition the 7.62mm bullet just plain knocks 'em down. It's amazing how fast .30 caliber, military ball ammo will cut through reinforced concrete as compared to 5.56mm ammo. There's no getting around the physics, two to three times the mass moving at almost the same velocity makes a huge difference in your survivability in a bad situation.

dwight55

There has never been, and in today's political/financial situation, . . . will never be another main battle rifle that will surpass it for ALL of its qualities.

It is the pinnacle of wood/steel MBR technology for a main battle rifle that is efficient, . . . easy to maintain in the field, . . . extremely accurate, . . . effective, . . .

I like my AR, . . . and in certain environments, an AK is a formiddable weapon, . . . but when you stretch the distances, . . . or need to punch through a wall, . . . the M14 will have the job done and be on it's way home while the others are still trying.

I only had to use it once to protect me and mine, . . . it did the job, . . . 'nuff said.

May God bless,
Dwight

Marinecorpsmike

An M14 was issued to me in boot camp (1965) so it was the rifle that I learned to shoot with. I was then issued one as an automatic rifleman with F Co. 2/5 in January 1966. When I sighted it in on arrival in Vietnam I fired one mag on full auto, realized that was f***** up, turned it to semi and it remained that way until I rotated out. I loved it because it did it's job as an ass kickin weapon. Wouldn't have traded it for 5 Aks. Never had to compare it with an M16 because back then there weren't any. I didn't know it was heavy or that 20 rounds was too few.I just knew that it shot where it was pointed and and it hit hard when it got there. Now 40 plus years later I shoot an AR15 in high power matches and have come to appreciate what it offers. But my M14 will always be like my first girlfriend, special!!

Larry Gibson

After reading 'The Gun' by CJ Chivers (http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chiver...5848145&sr=8-1), I was curious about the reason so many people here love the M14.

Chivers did his homework but he takes a lot of things out of context an a lot of his assumptions are just his opinion. His dismissal about everything non AK is obvious. Having been involved in the military (SF) for many years in numerous countries through out the world training their soldiers I have to vehemiantly disagree with his political assertions regarding the AK as being the principle reason for political upheaval. It's been going on for centuries with whatever weapons are available. The book was worth one read and that's about it.


or God forbid, were you one of the unfortunate soldiers who had to witness first hand the problems with the M16 described above? Wishing you had the rifle you went through basic with.

Yup, that's me. I deployed from Okinawa in May '65 as a scout in the Recon section of 1/503 Inf Rgmt, 173rd Abn BDE (SEP) to Viet nam. We had a mix of XM16s and M14s along with M79s, M1911s, M12 shotguns and M60MGs. I did witness "first hand" all the problems associated with the M16 series from then up through the M4s in 2007 when I was discharged. I carried an XM16, anM60 and m1911 and an M14 while in Viet Nam in '65/'66. I used them all. I prefered the M14 because "lighter" don't mean shit when the shooting starts, the M14 when bang everytime I pulled the trigger, I didn't have to shoot charlie or PAVN more than once and concealment was not cover.

I have deployed with M16A1s and the M16A2 (refused the M4) many times over the years including Iraq in '05 and never really felt "undergunned" as I learned lng ago to put the bullet where it counts. Also, SF teams are given a great amount of "leeway" and we usually took several M14s with us in team boxes. I used numerous match M14s and my own M1As over the years in NMC high power matches. BTW; the M14E2 or m14A1 is very controllable on full auto if used prperly and as intended. A 20 round burst for S&Gs is not "properly or as as intended".

Thank you Vets for your service and any insight you can provide. I'm very curious to see some validation for the author's comments on the early shortcomings of our current rifle.

You're welcome. The shortcoming of the current system were long ago "valadated" before Chiver's comments. The concept of the STG44/AK/M16 with the intermediate cartridge is a valid concept "modern warfare" as the German, Soviet and our doctrines dictate. However, in non mechanized warfare of primarily infantry engagements, either large or small scale. The shortcommings of the "assault rifle" become apparent. This is proven in the current wars where the infantryman needs the accuracy, power and range of a true battle rifle and cartridge.

"7.62 NATO, better than Master Card or VISA, never leave home without it.....and your M14."

Larry Gibson

Paliden

By the time I hit Vietnam we had started pulling out the 1/5. I was there for another 9 months before we we're totally pulled out. Felt like 2 years. Most of the M16 ammo problems were fixed by this time but not the attitudes. In basic I trained with a Garand when arrived I checked out a M1A NM rifle and my pardoner had the same. It became my best friend. I bet my life on her and she NEVER let me down. I liked the bigger and heavier bullet a lot better. It was less likely to deflect and better D.R.T. than the small .223. I'm an old dog and your not going to get my M1A's away from me today. I even bought a M1A and lighten it up to use as my hunting rifle. I hunted with it back then so I do it today. Just no one shoots back today! LOL

mtbikerwvu

Carried it in the Army until 2002 when I retired after 22 years. I didn't get the M14 as a rifle until Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom. I was the only guy in the platoon that wanted it. I always carried the heavy guns, M60, SAW and M16 with the 203. I just like being different so along came the opportunity to be the 14 gunner and I took it. It is a game changer and puts a target on your head when you carry it. The enemy makes you the priority target. The M16 and M14 together as a team are perfect and should have been deployed in tandem in Viet Nam. Also, that nimrod Clinton should have to pay for every M14 that he had destroyed during his administration!

Parabellus

I had the M14 for Basic at Fort Lewis in 1967. After a few weeks of training I knew I wanted to have one of my own someday.
AIT was Fort Gordon at the Southeastern Signal School where I learned to operate and repair radio and telegragh equipment so I didn't touch a rifle again until I got my orders for Vietnam. That's when I was finally introduced to the M16.
Mid 1968 at Pleiku with the 43rd Signal Battalion I was issued another M14 this time with full auto capability. I kept it clean and carried it on guard duty but got to fire it on only one occasion when the company was loaded into a duce-n-a-half and carted out to a firing range just to make sure we all remembered how to use it.
Never had to shoot at anybody and never saw Charlie. Still I knew I would eventually want to get one of my own and finally more than forty years later I have a very fine Springfield M1A that I am relearning to shoot and maintain all over again and loving it.

Russ

davecampperry

Look at my avator. Notice the grin. I hate to sound like an old 'mossback' but the M14 is the greatest battle implement ever devised for the individual soldier who wants to win. With apologies to George Patton. The M14 saved my life several times where a lesser rifle/carbine would have failed, and I earned my Distinguished badge with one. Nuff said?

pilotc7a

WHEN I WAS IN, ALL WE HAD WERE M-1 GARANDS. THAT WAS IN KORE
IN VIETNAM/LAOS ALL THERE WERE WERE M-16s, THE DISASTER OF THE CENTURY. I STILL BELIEVE THAT THE M-16 CONTRACT WAS LET BECAUSE THE RVN COULDN'T CARRY AN M-1 GARAND OR A M-14. TOO HEAVY. OUR GUYS COULD IF THEY WANTED TO AND MANY DID. THE AMMO WAS HEAVIER AND THE WEAPONS WERE NOT USED IN AUTOMATIC, BUT THEY HIT HARD, AND EVERY TIME.
THE ROUND USED IN M-16s WAS NOT GOOD IN THE JUNGLE. THAT'S WHERE THE AK-47 WORKED FINE. IT WAS 30 CAL AND NOT .223.
NOBODY LIKED THE M-16, AS IT HAD ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS. MANY ELECTED TO CARRY AKs AS IT WAS MUCH BETTER. AND BESIDES IT DIDN'T GIVE THEM AWAY.

I TRULY BELIEVE IN THE M-14 BECAUSE OF ITS VERSATILITY. IT'S AN "ANY WHERES"
TYPE OF WEAPON THAT REACHES OUT. THE M-16 TYPE IS GOOD IN THE BACKYARD AND UP CLOSE.

PILOTC7A

GARRARD

I was issued a M14 while I was in the Old Guard. We used them mostly for drill but we still had to maintain them. Since we spent more time with the M14 than our M16's, I started to learn about them and I eventually went to an armorers course where the instructor explained to us what was great about the M14. After that I was interested and learned all I could. Eventually I became the company armorer where I learned how to do more complex repairs. I came to appreciate the M14 so much I knew I would want one when I left the Old Guard so I bought my M1A.

So why do I love it? It's elegant, reliable, simple, accurate, and powerful.

XXIV Corps

Plus I had trained with one.

Tenfeathers

Trained with one,used one in combat clean or dirty,even broke it never failed to fire.
All I can think of.

Oh BTW makes a nice hole & one shot one kill.

armydogdoc

All I have ever known in combat is the M-16 and the M-4. I can tell you this, the M-4 is a weapon that requires you to stay on your target even after you have fired the first and sometimes second shot as there is no stopping power there. The M-16 was better in that regard, however after living those experiences I will always lean towards a larger caliber. The U.S. Military was wrong to stray from the 7.62 and 45 acp. When I shoot you I want to make a big @$$ hole in you and for your heart to cease beating immediately. So it weighs a little more.......WAAAAAAHHHHH.....put on your big girl panties and lets survive this thing. If I had to do it all over again I would have refused to cary either of those toy guns and would have requested the M-14. I love the one that I bought and hardly ever shoot the AR now.