Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today... - M14 Forum

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Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today...

This is a discussion on Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today... within the Steel and Wood forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Actually it was really pretty! Does anyone here have one? do you like/love it? I had no idea that Beretta made one. Looked much nicer ...


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Old July 6th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #1
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Cool Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today...

Actually it was really pretty! Does anyone here have one? do you like/love it? I had no idea that Beretta made one. Looked much nicer than the Springfield I have seen that was new, but I did only look at it and did not compare them. I did not have time to check it out, but I did find some Winchester 7.62 ammo though.

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Old July 7th, 2010, 11:14 AM   #2
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Beretta Garand Varieties

Found a comprehensive historical article On "Beretta Garands" in '06 and .308 chambers. Many variations and manufacturers. Couldn't find any sources for current manufacture, though.

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/bm59/GCA0283.pdf

It seems all have 20 round mags that are not compatible with M14 mags. Since you will have to find a used rifle, also finding mags may be a problem.

Beautiful rifle. If you do get your hands on one, be sure to give us a mouth-watering report on it.

Best regards. - - - Smokey

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Old July 7th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #3
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Beretta BM59s are different than Beretta Garands, but I'm really not an expert on either. Someday I'd like to have a nice foreign-made Garand for the collection.

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Old July 7th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #4
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Correction to my previous post

Found that Beretta did make their early Garands in the standard form with the 8 round '06 en bloc clip. Reese Surplus may respond to inquiries, as they had some at one time directly from Beretta.and show one variety for sale now at their site.

http://www.reesesurplus.com/

Click on "M1 Garand Collector Parts" to get to a pic at the head of the list. Cant tell for sure if clip or mag, as Beretta built both types over the years. Don't think they made .308's in anything but 20 round mag style incompatible with M14 mags, though.

Best regards. - - - Smokey

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Old July 8th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #5
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beretta m1 garands were made with ww2 winchester machinery from the usa to italy back in the mid 1950's. the real springfield armory sent all the winchester machinery with springfield engineers to set-up the production of garands. there were two manufacturers of garands, beretta and breda. they both manufactured for worldwide contracts. i have a beretta danish contract. all the parts are marked pb. i also had a danish breda but sold it. for a post war garand and made by a company who has been manufacturing rifles since 1526(springfield started in 1794) they know how to manufacture rifles. bm59's came later. this is a garand needed if you have all the ww2 and post war garands. just my .02 cents. fatso rocky

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Old July 15th, 2010, 10:50 AM   #6
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I have a bit of a thing for post war Garands and the Italian variety have lots of variations to choose from.

To my knowledge, Beretta/ PB ( Private enterprise) and Breda /BMB ( Italian Govt. controlled) made the very most of what we gave them (lots of parts and machines) in the post war years. They grew to market new types and variations to sell in the world community. They seemed to offer something for every price range whether that customer wanted new rifles or their US aid rifles to be rebuilt or upgraded to BM59 specs.
.

.

They specialized in offering overhaul and conversion services to other countries that did not assume manufacturing themselves.
These services included
• .30 cal rifles and spares. Made for other post war adopters of the Garand. Most Dane returns have been rebuilt with some smattering of PB and BMB parts.
• 7.62 Garand conversions.
This was after the NATO round was established and consisted of converting 30-06 to 7.62 by chopping off the breech and re-chambering. This allowed them to make use of new and used USGI .30 cal tubes that did not have to be newly made. Along with this came op rods, rear Handguards and stocks that had to be 1/2 inch shorter than std to make the chopped barrel work. Labor must have been so low that this was at least as economically feasible as new.

The BM59 is the box fed modification that was their modernization step which took shorter evolutionary steps than the US did with the M14. Probably due to economic and parts reasons as the new designs would have used the same know how learned from building Garands.

The Italians approached the BM59 in two ways. Newly purpose built or converted from USGI receivers. This would have depended on what the customer had and how big their budget was.

If you were a defense minister on a low budget you could have your US aid M1’s converted to BM59 Type E. This was a lot like the 30-06 to 7.62 conversion as it made use of your parts, shortened to chamber 7.62 and then opening up the receiver legs to take the BM59 20 round box magazine. The trigger assembly was also modified. It looks outwardly like a std. Garand in length but had a muzzle brake and a box magazine hanging off the bottom. Some of these would have converted USGI barrels and some might have new Italian barrels. These could be ordered in semi auto or select fire.

Here is a BM59 type E.
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.

The more Familiar BM59 had a shorter barrel built in grenade sight, bipod and no front handguard. It could be assembled with a variety of stock configurations from Folding Para, to Pistol gripped for LMG duty. Reports from Italian rifle racks seem to bear out that the BM59’s found in Italian service were most representative of converted USGI receivers from SA, Winchester, Harvester and H&R. This indicates that, at the least, post war Garand receivers were getting over there and not just left over WW2 Winchester production. Beretta receiver’ed rifles, both M1 and BM59 style, were primarily for paying export customers.

At the end of the BM59 production life some importers were able to bring some “real” ones over here in the 70-80’s. Most rare is the Benet arms BM69 (military trim) and then the slightly more common Berben imports BM62 (slightly less martial looking). These were true Italian made rifles using up most of the final production run of Italian receivers. Years later Reese Surplus brought in the remaining parts and receivers and built up rifles here and have only recently sold out of first rifles and now parts.

This is a Type E and BM62


In looking at lots of Beretta parts used in the conversion process I have noticed that they never wasted anything and refit whatever they had. USGI Trigger groups and bolts are commonly seen with PB overstamps.

This looks like Winchester front sight that has been remarked.
.

.

USGI bolts converted to BM59

.


.




JR

Thanks from Tommo
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Old July 17th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #7
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After WWII the Garand was suppose to be "the rifle of Europe". And Beretta was suppose to be the main supplier. Breda was contracted by Beretta to help fill orders. Many countries had been supplied US Garands including Italy. Well many countries wanted to make "their own rifles" such as France and Belgium and later Germany. So sales if Beretta Garands weren't huge but they did make them for a while.

When more modern select fire rifles were required Beretta designed the BM-59. Now the Italian government wasn't going to pay for complete new rifles as Italy had a large supply of US Garands. All Italian military Garands and BM59's have US Garand receivers. The Italian military never bought any new Italian-made Garand or BM-59's themselves.

Indonesia had Garands and receivered a license from Baretta to make Garands and BM-59's.

Beretta developed a conversion of the Garand to BM-59. This was sold to the Argentine Navy at $42 a rifle which were old US Garands and included 4 magazines per rifle.

The BM-59 was originally designed to headspace like a Garand have a non-chrome bore and chamber that could reamed. The Italian military insisted on chrome bores and chambers. This cause Beretta to make barrels of different chamber depths to adjust headspace of different receivrs and bolts. The original light weight BM-59 was designed with a 17.5 inch barrel. NATO required an integrated rifle grenade launcher muzzle device in 1961. This added length to the rifle and the Italian military insisted on a longer barrel length of 19.35 inches. The export BM-59's mostly had non-chrome bores and many had the original design 17.5 inch barrel.

(Note Italy received a license to make H&K G-3's but unique due to chrome bores)

The Italian-made Beretta and Breda Garands you find were all made for export to other countries, mostly European but also Indonesia. Italy used all US Garand receivers for it's military. Denmark and at least one other European country were the big buyers of Italian-made Garands.

The last Italian-made BM-59's were made in 1969 for Nigeria but the communist took over in Jan 1970, before most of the rifles could be shipped.

Thanks from Tommo
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Old July 17th, 2010, 12:01 PM   #8
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Cool

Thanks for the information everyone. I will be sure to check them out closer next time.

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Old July 19th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #9
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Current Man at Arms Gun Collector has a nice article about Beretta Garands.

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Old July 20th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatso14 View Post
beretta m1 garands were made with ww2 winchester machinery from the usa to italy back in the mid 1950's. the real springfield armory sent all the winchester machinery with springfield engineers to set-up the production of garands. there were two manufacturers of garands, beretta and breda. they both manufactured for worldwide contracts. i have a beretta danish contract. all the parts are marked pb. i also had a danish breda but sold it. for a post war garand and made by a company who has been manufacturing rifles since 1526(springfield started in 1794) they know how to manufacture rifles. bm59's came later. this is a garand needed if you have all the ww2 and post war garands. just my .02 cents. fatso rocky
Negative. Beretta never used Winchester machinery to build any Garand parts, but they did build their own machinery based upon complete specifications and production drawings by John Garand (incl. production flowcharts). Numerous forgings and components that Winchester hadn't completed or shipped out after their production ceased were received by Beretta, completed and re-stamped (sometimes Winchester and PB stampings are found on the same part).

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Old July 20th, 2010, 09:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavaTech View Post
Negative. Beretta never used Winchester machinery to build any Garand parts, but they did build their own machinery based upon complete specifications and production drawings by John Garand (incl. production flowcharts). Numerous forgings and components that Winchester hadn't completed or shipped out after their production ceased were received by Beretta, completed and re-stamped (sometimes Winchester and PB stampings are found on the same part).
try reading bruce canfield's complete guide to garand and carbine, page 149, under italian m1 rifles. andrew mowbray publisher.

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Old July 21st, 2010, 01:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatso14 View Post
try reading bruce canfield's complete guide to garand and carbine, page 149, under italian m1 rifles. andrew mowbray publisher.
Perhaps I'll review it tonight at home, but there's really no need to do so just to refresh bad information.

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Old July 21st, 2010, 01:53 PM   #13
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Killing the "Winchester Tools" vampire

Here's a nice read from a source with no connection to Garands or collecting them. Rather than re-inventing the wheel I'll simply reference a thread I posted a few days past on the CMP Forums.

The title says it all, read here.

I strongly suggest that anyone having an interest in the evolution of manufacturing read Mr. Jaikumar's monograph, it's a good read IMHO.

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Old July 24th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #14
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bob sejas wrote articles on the winchester machinery and springfield engineers used by beretta factory in the 1950's in the gca journal in the late 1990's. will look for it. fatso rocky

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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #15
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Beretta M1 Garands

As nearly as can be reconstructed, Beretta produced well over 100,000 M1 Garands. This has to be tempered with the knowledge that the Indonesians also built their own and some Nigerian contracts MAY include some BM.62 rifles.

The most common in this country by far is the Danish-crested.

However, well before GCA 1968 took effect, some other-crested and Italian military rifles DID enter the U.S. as unmarked (importation stampings were not required before 1970) imports. Germany called the M1, regardless of where acquired, the G.50.

Despite what I had originally written in the early editions of my books, Winchesters machinery was NEVER used as anything but templates to be reverse engineered. Among other things, it had been stored outdoors, mostly
uncovered. It was U.S. property, by the way!)

There may have been five-digit Beretta numbers, but I have probably seen a hundred Italian-produced receivers and rifles, probably more, and NONE bore a five digit number.

The assertion that "no one is interested in foreign-produced M1 Garands" is apparently blatantly false. They now sell typically for $1500-3000.

Yes, some were in fact produced in 7.62x51mm. "NATO".

The side and heel marking notations didn't change much, and the customary rendition of leg codes seen in "the firearms media" is incomplete, at best.

I've never been able to get firm quantity figures from Beretta, although they cooperated on a vast number of other projects. But I did have extensive contacts in the industry in Lombardy who passed on a great deal of data.

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