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Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today...

This is a discussion on Saw a really nice Beretta Garand today... within the Steel and Wood forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; And "LavaTech" is precisely correct. I illustrate a "WRA/PB" gas cylinder in THE COMPLETE M1 GARAND. The first Beretta M1 rifle I ever saw and ...


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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #16
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And "LavaTech" is precisely correct.

I illustrate a "WRA/PB" gas cylinder in THE COMPLETE M1 GARAND.

The first Beretta M1 rifle I ever saw and photographed, back in the sixties, bore what turned out to be a "scraped" Winchester milled trigger guard, clearly stamped "PB" and clearly "original" to the rifle.

There are LOTS of other examples in my photo files, too.

It's important to document this stuff while we can, since obviously, some of the ill-informed folks out there are going to start claiming all that early stuff with Italian markings is "fake". In fact, it's already started.

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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #17
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The Beretta receivers imported by SAI/Reese were, as far as I could tell, NEVER military at all, at least none of the many I saw.

Ditto various other importers, who often applied their own markings.

The .308/7.62x51 rifles produced that way were ALL standard length. Most of the actions converted to the shorter "Tipo 2" were on U.S. receivers, at least for Italian use. Terni seems to have made many of the parts and coordinated activities on the "Tipo 2" conversions.

All the true militaries I have ever seen bore national crests of various sorts.

This doesn't mean those SAI jobs numbered under 200 don't have value.

It just means they were never military.

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Old November 13th, 2016, 08:26 AM   #18
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I have one of those 2 digit Beretta rifles brought back from their factory by Bob Reese, I had an email from a Collen Reese when they had the surplus business and wish I hadn't lost it, but, basically I was told by her their books showed mine was one of less than 200 they imported as complete rifles that Bob had found in Beretta's basement, sure you've heard that story floating around that I originally posted some time ago when I was looking for info, and relayed what Collen had told me : "Bob was on a buying trip at Beretta and some old gentlemen showed him some forgotten Garand's in storage".

That's as far as I've gotten, I can tell you mine is #055 and marked P. Beretta behind the rear sight, the heel is sans any crest, so I have to wonder if these were samples for a pending contract that never materialized, below the wood line the receiver is marked for Breda I believe, other than that every part on the rifle is marked PB with the exception of the barrel & stock I can find no markings.

Here's a link to pictures of the actual rifle when I bought it, better pictures than I'm able to take or post : http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9477938

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Old March 11th, 2017, 05:40 PM   #19
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Tipo 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by LavaTech View Post
Negative. Beretta never used Winchester machinery to build any Garand parts, but they did build their own machinery based upon complete specifications and production drawings by John Garand (incl. production flowcharts). Numerous forgings and components that Winchester hadn't completed or shipped out after their production ceased were received by Beretta, completed and re-stamped (sometimes Winchester and PB stampings are found on the same part).

You are precisely correct. The information about "reverse engineering" in fact comes from Italian Ordnance and Beretta themselves.

Got it ca.1986.

The surmise of another post, namely that the Italian military used very, very few--probably none at all!!--of Italian produced M1's appears correct. Their BM.59 and Tipo II permutations were on U.S. receivers, retained the U.S. serial numbers, but were, for domestic political reasons, almost always re-marked with Breda or Beretta information. "Tipo II" was the shorter version in the NATO cartridge, of which many excess kits remain because the intent to convert all M.A.P. rifles was never fulfilled, many being instead modified at full length using new barrels, some with 1 turn in 12" rifling.

Nigerian crest M1's have been seen stateside, including one marked "BM59" but a very standard M1 8-shot en block loading rifle, with the caliber "7.62x51mm.) emblazoned likewise on the receiver. I have seen an almost identical unit with a Colombian crest.


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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:03 AM   #20
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Still curious about this one. I was told by Colleen Reese at RSI, this one was on their books as a complete rifle that Bob Reese imported from Beretta around 1990. As you can see it's a Tipo 2, marked P. Beretta behind the rear site, and curiously below the wood it's marked "BMR" with a drawing number on the right side ahead of the receiver leg, other than that, every part is marked "PB", except the barrel & stock I can find NO markings :












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Old March 14th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #21
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The "BMR" strut marking is not exclusive to either Beretta or Breda. It indicates machining by Breda, albeit most of their output was ultimately delivered by Beretta.

Of course, this one was delivered much later, and to SAI/Reese, not to any government.

There was an excellent article some years back on why the impression was given the receivers were produced in "Roma" (Rome), for local political purposes, and why Breda wound up producing most of the early receivers.

The rest of the "Tipo 2" data is already covered.

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Old March 15th, 2017, 05:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimthompson502002 View Post
The "BMR" strut marking is not exclusive to either Beretta or Breda. It indicates machining by Breda, albeit most of their output was ultimately delivered by Beretta.

Of course, this one was delivered much later, and to SAI/Reese, not to any government.

There was an excellent article some years back on why the impression was given the receivers were produced in "Roma" (Rome), for local political purposes, and why Breda wound up producing most of the early receivers.

The rest of the "Tipo 2" data is already covered.
It's an honor Sir.

So, what exactly do I have here? The back story or "Lore" I got from Colleen Reese was that Bob was making the rounds at Beretta Italy on one of his surplus buying trips, and discovered this lot of rifles (180-200?) that had been left down in Beretta's basement in storage, no one seems to know why or how long they'd been there. I specifically asked about this one (#055) and she told me it was imported onto their books in 1990 as a "Complete Rifle".

Were these built in hopes of some contract or commercial sales that never materialized, then forgotten in storage? Or, did Beretta just make these rifles from spare parts on hand at Bob Reese's request? And he bought all their leftover spare parts too, and some made into rifles with American receivers put together at SAI? Could it be the story about "Rifles found in storage" was a marketing gimmick on Reese's part?

Another oddity I've seen on 2 rifles in the #020 serial range and marked same as mine (Or lack of crests), had Arabic carving on the stocks, and reportedly, got imported from the Middle East. Here's a link to one that sold in 2015 :

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13283136

Your input is so much appreciated.


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Old March 20th, 2017, 09:41 PM   #23
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Tipo 2 rifles were all conversions.

Canfield and others have concluded that ALL Tipo 2 rifles actually issued/converted were on re-used/reconfigured/re-marked U.S.G.I. receivers.

The Arabic or Farsi marked stocks are common, and are not original to any Tipo 2.

The one that fellow is selling/sold is not what it is represented to be, nor is it "factory original".

Exported Italian military M1's ALL have national crests/logos.

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