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IMR 4227 Compressed Load

This is a discussion on IMR 4227 Compressed Load within the Steel and Wood forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; I picked up some M1 carbine tracers to load. While both tracer and FMJ both weigh 110g, the tracer bullet is longer, .862 v .679. ...


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Old January 28th, 2017, 06:56 AM   #1
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IMR 4227 Compressed Load

I picked up some M1 carbine tracers to load. While both tracer and FMJ both weigh 110g, the tracer bullet is longer, .862 v .679. I have IMR 4227 and at 15g it is a compressed load, almost filling the case. With a longer projectile, the powder will be compressed a bit more. I also have the option of using H110 which at 15g will not be compressed, but I have questions about the reduction in case volume due to the longer bullet.

Anyone have experience with loading tracers?

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Old January 28th, 2017, 10:05 AM   #2
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No help with the tracer thing, but 15 grains of H110 is off the chart according to the Hornaday 9th edition.

Max load is shown at 14.9 of H110 in the red zone for rifles.

I do however load out to 15.2 of IMR4227 for a Ruger Blackhawk revolver in 30 carbine per Hornaday 5th edition.

When loading rounds that will work in either the rifle or the revolver, I keep the IMR4227 at 14.9 grains.

Are you sure that the tracers are for M1 Carbine and not for M1 Garand?

If you're loading just for the "that was cool factor" back off the load.

Why pound a historic rifle to pieces with the high pressures?

Edit: after some research I found IMR 4227 and H110 are slow burning powders that are OK with being compressed.

Because they burn slow there is not much of an increase in pressure when compressed.

IMHO I would still back off the 15 grain load on the tracer rounds.

I learned something today.


Last edited by wiz1997; January 28th, 2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason: did a bit of research
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Old January 28th, 2017, 11:16 AM   #3
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Several manuals show 15 grs max for 4227 even though its a tad slower than H110/296. Also remember not to crimp as it headspaces on the case mouth.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 07:43 AM   #4
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Master Po to the rescue

I found the specs for M1 carbine ball and tracer on Master Po's temple. Both are loaded to 13 grains of WC 820 so there was no change for the longer projectile. What is the modern equivalent of WC 820? Jeff Bartlett had a note to use H 110 data but 13 g seems low for ball ammo.

http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/30carb.htm

Master Po's info on the powder charge got me to thinking so I looked at the construction of the tracers. The base is not flat, but cone shaped so it may displace the same volume in the case. I'm going to load some at my normal H110 and IMR4227 charges - 14.5 grains. the PITA is I have to look for a suitable area to test fire.

I also did some research on WC 820 and found that it should be loaded at 10% less than H110. So 15g H110 ~ 13.5g WC 820 which is close to the 13g spec for USGI ammo. (14.5 ~ 13.05)

Comments and observations appreciated.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 10:07 AM   #5
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Old January 29th, 2017, 10:16 AM   #6
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I like the lighter load at 14.5 grains.

Finding a place to test the tracers will definitely be a problem.

My range and all others in the area prohibit tracers due to potential fire hazards.

Any large bodies of water nearby?

Years ago a buddy would go to the beach here in Texas to shoot his tracers.

Pretty cool at night.

Shooting at a river or lake may not be a good idea because at just the right angle a bullet will skip off the surface of the water.

I'll plead the 5th on how I learned that.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 10:34 AM   #7
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Although I generally use 2400 for 30 carbine, when I use IMR 4227 in 357/44 magnum loads they are usually compressed.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 04:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vos Parate View Post
I picked up some M1 carbine tracers to load. While both tracer and FMJ both weigh 110g, the tracer bullet is longer, .862 v .679. I have IMR 4227 and at 15g it is a compressed load, almost filling the case. With a longer projectile, the powder will be compressed a bit more. I also have the option of using H110 which at 15g will not be compressed, but I have questions about the reduction in case volume due to the longer bullet.

Anyone have experience with loading tracers?
It was a very long time ago but if I recall correctly I used 13.5grs of H110 with 110 grain bullets in my old M1 carbine... 15 gr seems way hot IMHO

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Old February 2nd, 2017, 09:32 AM   #9
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FWIW I use 14.9 grains of H-110 and it is a hammer and exhibits no detrimental signs.

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Old February 7th, 2017, 03:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vos Parate View Post
I found the specs for M1 carbine ball and tracer on Master Po's temple. Both are loaded to 13 grains of WC 820 so there was no change for the longer projectile. What is the modern equivalent of WC 820? Jeff Bartlett had a note to use H 110 data but 13 g seems low for ball ammo.

http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/30carb.htm

Master Po's info on the powder charge got me to thinking so I looked at the construction of the tracers. The base is not flat, but cone shaped so it may displace the same volume in the case. I'm going to load some at my normal H110 and IMR4227 charges - 14.5 grains. the PITA is I have to look for a suitable area to test fire.

I also did some research on WC 820 and found that it should be loaded at 10% less than H110. So 15g H110 ~ 13.5g WC 820 which is close to the 13g spec for USGI ammo. (14.5 ~ 13.05)

Comments and observations appreciated.
Consulting Sierra, they show a max charge of 13.8 grains H110 for a 110 grain FMJ or SP, 1900 fps. So 13 grains of H110 for a GI load would be about right.

Sierra shows 15.4 grains 4227 max charge, same velocity.

I'm less concerned with the similar bullet weight and more concerned with the longer bearing surface of the tracer bullet causing pressure spikes, so I would personally start low and work up in the name of safety. Also be mindful that .30 carbine tracer bullets haven't been made for well over 40 years so I wouldn't expect great success in lighting the trace material even with a full power load. YMMV.

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