 2Thanks -
 1 Post By jismail -
 1 Post By Sailormilan2
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February 20th, 2012, 02:45 PM
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#1 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Southern California
Posts: 250
| Big 5 carbine Range report
So after getting the sight properly seated and looking through the guts of the things for a bit, swabbing out the goo and sighing over the slow advance of rust, I thought I would take her out for a day at the range.
Went down to P2K (that's Project 2000 down in El Cajon), with a 100yd indoor range and seats and tables, its hard to beat for comfort, even if you have to do sight ins and waits. SInce I had never shot the carbine there, I had to sit around for a half an hour waiting for some shmo to get 3 rounds inside a 4x5in square, 25yds with his rifle so I could have my turn to do the same. You HAVE TO DO THIS if you are honest enough to tell them you have never shot your rifle before. I always grumble about this, but it did teach me a little lesson this time. I though, no problem, so when I stepped up and took my first shotand could not see anything, I had to blink and reel it in for a closer inspection. The gun was shoot waaaay high, even with my sights all the way back (Ihave the adjustable on the back). So with a shot or two more, aimng extremly low, I pulled in a 1 inch group. So at least the sighting seems to be consistent. THis took me about 5 minutes, so I don't know what took the guy ahead of me so long, oh well, probably lucky he didn't decide to stay there at the sighting range for the rest of the day. They use the pistol range to sight in, and there is always such a crowd, its a seriously long wait to shoot a handgun.
OUt on the 50 yard range, I tried a few shots with my 10/22 to warm up as I have it in a M1 Carbine stock for Appleseed shoots. Then on to the real thing. First shots were again frighteningly high. I was using a 25m drill target to try to sight in, but I got the feeling between me and the gun, I was just fooling my self thinking I was going to sight into a 1 in. sqaure on that sheet since I was having to hold at 6 oclock low almost off the target sheet itself just to get near the center square! A few more rounds and when I found it was getting on paper and my groups were not crazy, I decided to go ahead and step up to the Dirty Bird. I had burned and hour already and had no lunch, so I knew my aim was not going to get any better.
If anyone is familiar with the p2k range, there are a couple points worth making. 1. I really wish they would have improved the line by providing target reels, so folks do not have to wait for the all clears every time the want to change the target. It would vastly improve safety as well, since shooters routinely disobey the "step behind the line" when the ceasefire is announced. Also, its a nice way to be able to isolate your groups and better study things.
2. I think its worth providing room for prone shooting, they could have expanded further back into the waiting room to easily accommodate that. Maybe there are safety concerns in an indoor setting, but with an expanded (depth) it should be no problem if everyone is obeying the range rules.
Anyway, once I knew the carbine's sight were not going to help me out too much, I decided to have some fun, with standing unsupported and seated elbow supported (I don't have bags) shots, I was able to holdmost everything inside the 9. Even when I went ou the 100 and tried pushing the sights around a little, I still found I just had to hold low and get a feel for it. Its a challenge to shoot, but I kind of bonded with it, its got its own personality and I am going to have to better figure out those quirks. I might even try to go back to a flip up sight on it as I am not convince this one is doing anything for finding range.
I looked at my spent casing as well, the last time I mentioned there were markings on the round that my gun shop guy told me were indicators of some kind of barrel wear that indicated I would probably need a new barrel in 5k rounds or so. Well, here are several Federals next to his Winchester. Can you guys see anything crazy wrong with these compared to your experiences. They do seem to have the sam sort of horizontal line at the back where the smith told me the case was probably expanding, but everyone seems to say that's normal with these carbines.
Also, I experienced a few feed failures and at least one stovepipe. Right now, I think the Promag magazines may be the culprits, one of them has a bent plate on the bottom that refuses to lock into its seatin with the forward wal of the mag. One disturbing shot ejected the shell and the magazine! I blame myself for not making sure it has a solid lock up, but i am suspecting some worn parts and again the magazines themselves as subsequent shots did not reproduce this slapstick like event.
A few questions for folks: Do you reccommend any one commercial carbine round over another? I was not dissappointed with the Federal, but availability was my only concern there as I had get whatever was close by the day before. If the Aguilla is any better, I will order it from the CMP.
Can anyone reccommend a better mag than these Promag jobs? Its about the only brand I have found in my area and if anyone has any other reccommendations I will do some internet shopping.
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February 20th, 2012, 03:35 PM
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#3 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Southern California
Posts: 250
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Unfortunately, I am in California. Can't buy anything more than a 10 rounder here.
And at $20 a pop, those are no bargain from promag though they are cheaper at gunshows. http://www.promagindustries.com/Sear...lts.asp?Cat=55
In fact, since I last wrote the above, I have read a few reviews that relate my exact troubles with these mags. Bottom plate trying to fall off, bad feeds. There are not really any other brands you can get out here in CA off the shelf.
I have seen the Sherer brand around on some internet suppliers sites, but no one has them in stock? Is the company still manufacturing? Are they a decent brand?
Last edited by m1jerm; February 21st, 2012 at 12:16 AM.
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February 21st, 2012, 05:23 AM
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#4 | | Snappin In
Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Savannah
Posts: 30
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I've had good results with Prvi. Widener's has it for $.033/round in a case lot.
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February 21st, 2012, 01:19 PM
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#5 | | Grunt
Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 113
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Rebuild carbines are known to shoot high due to the fact that the original flip sight was calibrated to the front sight , and during the rebuild the armory seldom reset the front sight heigth to match the new style rear sight. You may need to grind the front sight slightly to get it dialed in.
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February 21st, 2012, 02:19 PM
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#6 | | Designated Marksman
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Surrounded in Central California
Posts: 642
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The front sight needs to be moved in the opposite direction you want to go. If it is shooting high, you need to increase the height of the front sight, which will make it shoot lower. If it shoots to the right, you move the front sight to the right,which will change the point of impact to the left.
Regarding your brass. That discoloration is normal. The "discolored" part is due to the brass expanding to grip the chamber walls. The shiney portion is the unsupported portion of the case that protrudes out of the chamber and into the bolt face. Since it is solid, it doesn't expand as does the forward portion of the case. It is nothing to worry about.
I sent you a PM regarding your front sight.
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February 21st, 2012, 05:52 PM
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#7 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Southern California
Posts: 250
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Sailorman, that is good info on both the sight and the shell.
So now, I wonder, should I keep my rear adjustable sight and buy the later tall fall front sight, OR would it be more savvy to install the older flip sight.
Essentially, do I get that much more precision out of the new adjustable sight to make it worth the time and effort to install and grind down the new forward job?
What are the ranges that the 2 apperature flip sight is meant to accommodate?
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February 21st, 2012, 07:20 PM
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#8 | | Designated Marksman
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Surrounded in Central California
Posts: 642
| Quote:
Originally Posted by m1jerm  Sailorman, that is good info on both the sight and the shell.
So now, I wonder, should I keep my rear adjustable sight and buy the later tall fall front sight, OR would it be more savvy to install the older flip sight.
Essentially, do I get that much more precision out of the new adjustable sight to make it worth the time and effort to install and grind down the new forward job?
What are the ranges that the 2 apperature flip sight is meant to accommodate? | Good luck finding a original flip sight. Most of what you will run into will be reproductions.
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February 21st, 2012, 07:50 PM
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#9 | | Grunt
Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 113
| Quote:
Originally Posted by m1jerm Sailorman, that is good info on both the sight and the shell.
So now, I wonder, should I keep my rear adjustable sight and buy the later tall fall front sight, OR would it be more savvy to install the older flip sight.
Essentially, do I get that much more precision out of the new adjustable sight to make it worth the time and effort to install and grind down the new forward job?
What are the ranges that the 2 apperature flip sight is meant to accommodate? | If I recall correctly the flip sight is set at 150 and 300 yds
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February 21st, 2012, 10:17 PM
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#10 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Southern California
Posts: 250
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KPerDay | So, taking into account what Sailor said, I started looking on ebay at some new (old) sights, and the thing that struck me was the numerations and indentions I was seeing on the adjustable sights were very clear.
Mine was apparently FAR more grimey than I had thought, and so, I went to scrubbing and found more numbers down the rail but most importantly I was able to free the ring to slide down more than 2 clicks, which is all I had been able to move the thing at the range.
And much thanks to 1K for using the term "bottom out" because apparently I was not going as far down as I could. It was just so filthy inside the adjustment rails, it wasn't sliding, and so frozen, I thought this was as far as it went. Some bore bright, q-tips, and a slathering of grease and its functioning all down the length of the sight slide.
Looks like I may not need a whole new front or even rear sight, I just needed a good cleaning. I am going to need to hit the range again to see if its any better, but considering what I had to do before to get on target, this can only improve things and might save me $50 for new sights and tools.
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