M14 Forum

Seventh Fleet

It's a three band...

7th

willriskit

I'm sure the Afghanistanis had an abundance of foreign weapons, home grown and otherwise, because the last foreigners to conquer that country were the Greeks under Alexander the Great. Considering the amount of time and effort the British expended trying to control the region, Snider monkey-tail carbines must have been available. The .44/40 had to have been a '92 or earlier because the 1894 Winchester wasn't made in that calibre.

jmoore

How about a "no groove" Minie ball?


Some ".58/.577"" projectiles. The Snider carbine cartridge on the right is obviously a bit late for US Civil War use, as is the Sabot.



"No groovers" are appropriate for P'53 Enfields. And are about 0.562" dia. for ease of loading. Whether the British left on the paper wrapping, I don't know.

willriskit

Thanks for the pix! I've got about 100 rounds of 3-groove .58's but I no longer shoot that musket and my .56 Spencer ammo has become a collector's item.

Sweets

Interesting thread! I have an old minie ball that was was found at Manasas. Have to get it out to check which side it came from. In the meantime, all I can say is if you're gonna shoot me, please shoot me with something else.

Gus Fisher

When I did Confederate Reenacting in the early through later 80's, we were not allowed to reenact on most of the actual battlefields except New Market and Cedar Mountain, though we were in the operational area when we did the 1st or 2nd Battles of Manassas.

We were allowed to reenact Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg one time during Remembrance Day at Gettysburg, but there were no Union reenactors. Still it was an extremely emotional moment.

Some of our guys would go to Gettysburg during the Labor Day weekend every year and we would wear our Confederate Uniforms on at least one day. Got a Daguerrotype of us in uniform from one of those trips. We normally toured the battlefield in "civilian clothes," though.

One time when we were in an area that Ohio troops fought in, one of our guys just happned to kick up an original Enlisted Man's US belt plate. That was sort of neat, but it also had a soldier's name and unit carved in the lead in back of the plate. There was no way this was a reproduction as you just can't fake the amount of oxidation that was on the brass and lead parts. Anyway, when he researched the guy, turns out the original soldier was an Ohio Soldier who won a Medal of Honor as a Color Bearer, in that area of the battlefield . I suggested he donate the belt buckle to the museum and he later did that, though he hung onto it for a couple of years.

Three things on original Minie Balls.

First, the South could and did use captured .58 caliber paper cartidges for the Springfield in the South's Enfields as the ball sizes were .575" maximum and they fit in the .577 cal. Enfields.

Second, Confederates also used Smooth Minie Balls and even a smooth ball for the .450 Caliber Whitworth rifle when they did not have the octagonal bullet molds for them.

http://sgtriker.com/bullets.htm

Third, Buck and Ball rounds were used by even the North FAR later than most people expect. At Gettysburg, the 12th New Jersey used .69 caliber muskets with that load and even made a monument with the buck and ball load on top. Here's the link:

http://www.gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/NJ/12NJ.php

There were battles in what was then called "The West" that is actually what we call the Midwest today where late in the war (1864) Northern troops dropped their .69 caliber smooth bore muskets and picked up Enfield Rifle Muskets off the wounded or dead Confederates. I don't have a link handy for that, but I have that somewhere in my books on the war.

andyh1956

ok stupid loading question. when i open my cartridge & pour the powder down the barrel do i stuff the paper in before the bullet for wadding or do i just discard it & load the bullet? reason i ask is i have a dixie gun works 1863 miroku springfield rifle that i have never fired & thought about rolling some cartridges for it. i got this rifle from a man in texas. he built it for living history events but found out all the events he wanted to attend were pre 1863 & they wouldn't let him use his rifle. boy, they are picky!
andy

Gus Fisher

Andy,

COMBAT loading of the muskets called for just tearing off the end of the cartridge with you teeth and ramming the whole cartridge down the bore. However and again, the minnie balls were a little undersize compared to the ones we usually use today.

I suggest you take the paper off the bullet as burning cartridge paper fired from a musket can set the grass on fire ahead of you. How do I know? A bunch of us Reenactors at a reenactiment of Ball's Bluff in MD in the early 80's set fire to the field because of the burning cartridge papers. A whole bunch of us did a "Fire Dance" to stomp the flames out. It was actually touch and go, though we just got it licked before it got away from us.

andyh1956

ok i see. i had read years ago that lint from paper cartridges set the woods on fire during the battle of the widerness so that makes sense. thanks!
andy

willriskit

In the late 90's at a little show in Kentucky, a carpenter remodeling an old house in a small town sold me a cut-down .577 Enfield with an 1862 lock date and brass inlays on the right side of the shortened stock. According to him, it had been walled-up next to the kitchen chimney. The brass tang had a name crossed-out but still legible and another name had been substituted. It took several months for the lady at the Horse Soldier in Gettysburg to get me the info, but the crossed-out name was that of a private in an Illinois infantry regiment who was wounded and captured at Chickamauga and later died in a Confederate field hospital. The name substituted was a known member of Morgan's raiders.

The South relied heavily on captured northern ordnance. Also, hastily chosen artillery positions caused many fires. At a GPO sale in the 70's, I was able to purchase the EOD manual on the identification and deactivation of Civil war ordnance. The sections on grenades and land mines are particularly interesting.

willriskit

Just a quick addendum, but to further add to the confusion regarding minnie balls and who fired them, dud exploding projectiles of Southern manufacture have been recovered which were packed with .58 Cal. minnie balls and .69 Cal. round balls. These castings arrived in the field empty and were filled with shrapnel and powder prior to being fired. Cased and canister shot are somewhat easier to differentiate.

Gus Fisher

In case some have never heard of it, there was a HUGE Hullaballoo in the Northern Press during the war about the Barbaric use of exploding minie balls by the South. If fact, those bullets were supplied through Springfield Arsenal (though I'm not sure if they made them) and the origin of the exploding Minie's used by Southrons were from captured U.S. supplies.

willriskit

The Springfield Armory connection wouldn't surprise me. I've heard exploding balls mentioned but have yet to see one and the EOD manual doesn't mention them.

jmoore

Model of 1842 musket. Mfg. 1851

Small blue enemy line under fire!:


100yds

From Feb 10, 2012 range trip. Can't do M14s all the time...

andyh1956

ok i get a young man to work with sometimes & i throw a piece of mississippi trivia at him at the end of the day. so today i said " how many grooves does a CONFEDERATE minie ball have as opposed to a UNION minie ball"? much to my surprise he says "CONFEDERTAE balls have two grooves & UNION three." not only that, but he says he HAS one! he is gonna bring it next week & i will get some piks for 'yall. on top of this, the kid is from CANADA! he knows about confederate minie balls & i don't know squat about canada. well, i do have two ARCHIE comic books in french if that counts.
andy