M14 Forum

Gus Fisher

Folks, this thread is a result of Cachunk's question from the other thread:

"Would you be able to , perhaps in a different thread, ( and assuming you have not already), give your take on the general reliability, versatility and effectiveness of the carbine? I have never fired one and am quite curious as to your personal opinion of the machines."

I have to begin by stating that when I came in the Marine Corps in 1971 and was trained as an Armorer in 1972, the Corps no longer had any M1 Carbines. I did seek out some older Marine Armorers over the years and asked them about these things, as well as folks who used them in WWII and Korea. If you can work a M1 Garand, a Carbine is easy BUT you have to know a few things that are special to the Carbine.

I got a HUGE kick out of the fact a poster wrote that when he asked his Grandfather who used one in WWII and his Grandson passed on a story about the Carbine not stopping enemies reliably, his Grandfather replied "You got to AIM the MF." Man, I got a kick out of that comment and it reminded me of some of the answers I got to questions I asked my WWI Veteran Grandfather over the years!!! There is some great truth in that. A solid hit with a .22 rimfire short is expotentially better than a miss with .50 Cal. Ma Deuce.

A huge number of folks who only CARRIED the M1 Carbine in WWII and Korea, absolutely loved the Carbine. However, it is not easy to find someone who actually SHOT an enemy with a Carbine and then many of the WWII and Korean War vets don't want to talk about their experiences and that makes it even harder to get an idea of the Carbine's effectiveness. I have talked with some Vet's who did shoot enemies with Carbines and their conclusions were the Carbine rated from "OK" to downright poor. The ONLY guy I ever talked to that LOVED the Carbine in combat and had shot many guys with one - was someone who was a retired Marine Corps NM Armorer and quite frankly it surprised me GREATLY how highly he spoke of the Carbine he used in Korea. I kept at him on that point until finally in our fourth or fifth conversation, he mentioned that when he put a burst of 4 to 6 rounds into a Commie's chest, the guy dropped like a rock. It was only THEN I realized he was talking about an M2 or Full Auto Carbine. Well, if you put a four to six round burst of .22 rimfire into someone's chest, they will drop like a rock as well.

Other Marine and Army veterans of both WWII and Korea mentioned they initially like the Carbine until they had to shoot someone and then they did their best to get an M1 again as quick as possible. They THOUGHT the Carbine was going to be close to effective as the Garand, but when they found out it wasn't, they wanted their Garand or Thompson back.

I have also spoken with folks who use a 110gr hollow point bullet that was handloaded and they have said that makes the Carbine more effective and a good choice for home defense. I think someone else told me some maker made Carbine ammo with that bullet as well, but I don't remember what maker it was.

As far as the MECHANISM of the Carbine, I really like it. In many areas it is over engineered and especially for the .30 Carbine ammo. There are three HUGE things you have to know for reliability though.

The first thing is the piston nut HAS TO BE one of the later WWII ones (or post war) that has more of a chamfer in it. That gave just a little more room for gas volume that is really required for reliable function. I ran into one Carbine that did not function reliably no matter what I did years ago. I talked to some older Armorers and they didn't know what was causing it. I pulled out my copy of TM 9-1276, The Cal. .30 Carbines M1, M1A1, M2, and M3 Rifles and that's where I learned of the different piston nuts. OK, the one in the Carbine that would not function was an early piston nut, so I got a laster one and MUCH to my surprise, the Carbine went from not working hardly at all to working marvelously.

The second thing you must know is the piston nut HAS TO BE TIGHT. If it is loose, you will lose gas pressure too easily and the carbine won't function sporadically or hardly at all. Korean War Armorers have remarked they were ALWAYS retightening piston nuts on Carbines and that is probably on the Full Auto ones, especially. To KEEP the nut tight, YOU HAVE TO STAKE the piston nut in two places. If you get inside enough Carbines, you will notice some serious stakes that were put there by the Rebuild Arsenals. With those stakes, the piston nut almost never came loose. One thing I always check during inspections of Carbines is I use a Carbine Gas Piston Nut wrench to ENSURE the nut is tight and if not, I tighten it AND always STAKE the barrel so it aligns with two of the crenallations in the piston nut and that keeps the nut from loosening.

The third thing is REPLACE the recoil spring. On MOST Carbines I inspect, the recoil spring has been worn down too short. Just replacing that spring ensures many Carbines that don't function quite right will work fine later on.

I hate to tell people, but there is NO EASY WAY to do a tigger job on the M1 Carbine. This was a problem reported even in the early years of WWII and they came up with a different hammer spring and sear to try to correct that. The corrections were not real successful. To get the best trigger pull without doing a trigger job; you need an M1 hammer (not an M2 hammer) and a late spring and sear. I can do a trigger job on a Carbine, BUT it takes four or more hours on average and that makes a trigger job EXTREMELY expensive. I actually know folks who bought a carbine JUST TO GET the good feeling trigger in the trigger housing. Then they replaced the one in their shooting carbine with the one that felt good.

Oh, commercial carbine mags run from terrible to OK. The best functioning mags are the G.I. 15 round mags and that is what I use to test the function of all Carbines to ensure if the carbine does not work properly, then it is a gun problem and not a magazine problem.

Something a lot of people don't do well on the Carbine is they don't clean the chamber well and that will DEFINITELY cause malfunctions. Unlike the Garand and M14, there was no ratchet style chamber brush for them. The normal .30 caliber bore brush is TOO SMALL to clean the chamber correctly. What I do is use a .38 special/.357 Magnum bronze bore brush to clean the chamber. I push a rod down the bore with NO brush on it, then screw in the brush from behind the barrel. Then I pull and push, then turn, and pull and push the bush ONLY about 2 inches in the rear of the barrel. That way, the brush will remain full size to clean the chamber. If you drag the larger 38/.357 brush back through the bore, you will crush the wires and it won't clean the chamber as well. Korean War Armorers told me they cleaned the chambers with the bore brush for the .45 pistol using this technique.

Another thing many people don't know is that for EVERY G.I. Carbine, the front sight was FILED DOWN to match the rear sight and center the rounds on target. While this was absolutely required with the early flip sights, it was still required even with the later adjustable sights. On a lot of carbines folks are shooting for the CMP games matches, they have to get a higher front sight or new front sight for their Carbines.

Oh and this is just personal opinion, but the G.I. carbine slings SUCK. They are EXTREMELY difficult to adjust so most folks either kept them real loose or real tight along the side of the stock - even in combat. Also, it must have been a HUGE PITA to get to the carbine oiler, especially when the sling was new and so tight you almost have to hammer the oiler into the stock.

Now, the double pouch they came up with to hold two spare 15 round mags on the stock were great. Every combat vet I ever ran across LOVED them IF they could get them to use them.

Not sure if I have addressed everything. Maybe more to come later.

GARRARD

Thanks a lot for the post Gus. I'm repairing a M1 Carbine for a friend of a friend and the stuff about the piston nut is definitely going to save me some troubleshooting.

1KPerDay

Great stuff, thanks. What's the min spec for recoil spring length, if you have it handy?

Also, I agree that the slings are worthless... they look cool but they're so ridiculously hard to adjust that I just run them tight to the stock and ignore them. They're basically there for looks. :D

BTW how can I check whether the piston nut is loose? Will I just be able to feel it move back and forth under finger pressure?

Forgive the uninformed questions but I obviously don't know everything I should about these carbines.

jismail

I was watching a show on the Military Channel recently that was focused on the M1-carbine and how it was stil being used by some military units for other countries (I think the one they highlighted was France but I may be mistaken)

According to this show, the rifle was deemed very effective in the short range encounters of a Jungle terrain and such where the shorter effective range limits of the cartridge were not an issue and the size and weight of the rifle were an advantage.

To me, the moral of the story is to always use the right tool for the job, and in some applications, the M1 Carbine is the 'right' tool.


1943 Standard Products

Gus Fisher

You will never find this kind of information in even Military Technical Manuals because it was something Military Armorers had to learn by experience. Since I was not quite old enough to work the Carbine as an Armorer, I don't have a real good answer. The NOS G.I. springs I run across are a little over 11 inches to a little over 11 3/8" and they always work. So if your spring is under 10 inches, you DEFINITELY need to replace it and usually if it is under 10 1/2" - then I replace it. Of course no matter what the length is of a used spring, it still may have lost enough tension that it needs to be replaced.


Ah, are you ready for a very complicated and involved method to check this? Well, you are going to be disappointed. Grin. You get a piston nut wrench and try to unloosen the nut when holding the barreled receiver in your hand. Almost always, if it is tight then, it is OK. However, if it is not staked, then I try to tighten it and then stake it.

Gus Fisher

Gorgeous Carbine!

The effectiveness also has to do with who is being shot. The South Vietnamese loved the carbine and they did well against Charlie and the NVA. However, shooting Japanese soldiers was not nearly such a sure thing. That because the Japanese were a LOT more motivated to die in combat.

However, I'm sure the Carbine was much better under 50 yards than it was at 200 or more because it basically used a pistol round.

cachunk

Gus,

Thank you so much for posting this! Have you seen/ are you aware of the article that has gone around for some time by the former head of the NYPD Hostage Rescue Team during the 70's, I can not seem to find the link right now but I remember him claiming that the carbine had better penetration than any other small arms they had including 12 Ga. slugs... his mileage might vary.

How similar is the mechanism to that of our beloved M1/M14/M1a?

Thanks again for the thread I really appreciate the time and effort.

best,

Cachunk/ Jake

Gus Fisher

You are most welcome.

Gus Fisher

I have not seen the article you referred to. I have read in reliable reports that a Carbine round WOULD penetrate both the front and back of a WWII helmet, but I don't think it stated the range. Maybe 100 yards, but maybe not. I just don't know and I rather doubt it would penetrate both sides at 100 yards. Of course, I'm not going to buy a WWII era helmet to try it out. Grin.

They probably would penetrate better than 12 ga slugs at close ranges, but penetration alone, is not everything and especially when shooting soft portions of the body. What can happen then is not much energy is dumped into the body as the bullet passes through. Even when a 12 ga. slug does not penetrate as deeply, it dumps a WHOLE BUNCH more energy into the enemy's body.

The M14 gas system did not come directly from the M1 Carbine. I think the inventor was a guy named White and he/they had already tried to use that system on a Garand or on another rifle in the trials the Garand won, but had not perfected it at that point. However, I think the piston used in the Carbine did lead directly to both acceptance of and perfecting the M14 gas system.

cachunk

Gus,

It makes sense then that in his world the penetration could be excellent, come to think of it the article, ( wherever it is), did not mention stopping power but penetration, ( at least thats what I remember of it) and there is no way the NYPD was using the carbines past a few yards , certainly nothing like 100. I think I will skip the carbine.

Cachunk

Gus Fisher

While I have always super appreciated the Carbine mechanism and really liked the size and history of the carbine. I have never owned one for other than resale. This because I was never impressed with the G.I. ammo for it. However, if a factory is actually loading those 110 grain bullets in factory ammo, I may well rethink owning one.

A carbine DOES make a SUPERB rifle to start a youngster out on shooting something larger than a .22, though. The ladies also love them.

Gee, I may be talking myself into finding that ammo and buying a carbine for myself.

angelonm

Gus great info both posts. I recal being told by an old armorer. Since passed.
Never oil or put cleaner anywhere near the piston. It was a good way to gunk it up. "It will stick". I have never removed my pistons or had to adjust them.
I recall being told that Carbine ammo always has been made non corrosive. The piston is not supposed to be fiddled with, and that the heat and pressure would be hot and high enough to keep it reasonably free of carbon and fouling.
Thanks again

Gus Fisher

USGI Carbine ammo was always non corrosive, even from the very earliest ammo. Had they used corrosive ammo, I believe the Carbine would not have functioned as well as it did.

I have heard advice both to put a single drop of oil into the "gas bleed off" hole and the same "NO oil" as you were told. A lot of guys told me that if one was going to shoot 100 rounds or more, it was best to put a single drop of Hoppe's Number 9 into the bleed off hole before firing. (Standard Hoppe's not the copper eating kind.)

I have seen many dozens of Carbine pistons "gunged up" on the Carbines brought back from Korea that were so gunged up the pistons would barely move. On those, I took the nut out, cleaned the inside of the shroud, piston and nut thoroughly of any residue, then oiled the parts and wiped them as dry as possible. That leaves no real amount of surface oil on the parts, though, it is just to get in the pores of the metal so the parts would not rust. Usually, I could use the same piston nut, but occasionally I had to get a replacement if the threads were really worn. Then if the stakes were really sticking out and messing up the threads, I punched them out of the way or slightly cut them down. Then I tightened the nut down hard and staked them in a different area from the first stake marks. That proved to be the best way to handle when a piston was really badly fouled.

Oh, on one commercial "Enforcer" Pistol, the owner brought it to me and said it would not function. Well, nothing was wrong UNTIL I got to the piston. I have NEVER seen a piston as badly fouled or badly stuck as that one was. He told me he had fired about 5,000 rounds and never cleaned the piston. I had a devil of a time getting that piston out as I first had to figure out how it was held in place. It was held with a cross pin. Then I had to whack the barrel many times with a rawhide mallet before the vibration loosened the piston up enough to get it out. Then I cleaned the shroud and piston and the piston (and the whole pistol) functioned great after that.

Albud3

Remington, Federal and Winchester all make the standard 110 gr. FMJ loads for the .30 Carbine. They also offer 110 gr. soft-point rounds. Personal experience (pest, varmint and small game hunting) shows a good increase in stopping power with the SP rounds.
CCI/Speer offers a new .30 Carbine load that I have not had any experience with; an 110 gr. Gold Dot soft-point. All loads are in the 1990 fps muzzle velocity with 967 ft-lbs of energy.

No manufacturer offers a 110 gr. hollow-point load, but hollow-point 110 gr. bullets are available from Speer and, IIRC, some of the other bullet manufacturers if you want to roll your own.

TheTurtle

My first gun was a 10/22, then an M1 Carbine. It's what got me in love with the Garand, and when I finally got a Garand I then had a lust for the M14.

Since then I've now got two M1 carbines, a CRAP Universal, and a 1943 USGI Inland. I was given the inland from a good friend before he passed. Was battle ready with bayonette, and stock magazine pouches loaded with two 15 round GI magazines and ammo dated in the 50's. I love the thing. It's killed many a rabbit in my hands, and who knows what before me. I really loved taking it apart and learning how it operates, then trying to figure out how it all goes back together.

Did hear a story from a friend that carried an M2 carbine in *edit* "The Pacific Theater". He didn't give me all the details but basically, a Japanese soldier was running at him in his foxhole, with a fixed bayonette. He walked the carbine up his body like a zipper and the guy just kept coming at him. He fell into the foxhole and the gun stuck in the wall, while the Jap was dead as a doornail. He said his body and arms were wrapped tight with tape keeping the gun in a fixed position and his body upright. The gun had no ammo.