M14 Forum

DukeRustfield

I'm thinking my next gun purchase will be a double barrel shotgun. Side by sides have seem to fallen (deeply) out of favor and over and under are outrageously expensive.

Can anyone account for this? I thought both were angled to meet the zero either between for side by side or the bottom barrel angled up on a over under.

A guy at a gun store I was talking with about it said he thought the over unders were only priced the way they were simply because the "market would bear it," and the days of painstaking hand crafted alignment were replaced by computer controls anyway.

I haven't fired a double in literally decades. Any advice anyone wants to throw out? I generally use my shotguns for all purpose. Clays and the very rare varmit.

1KPerDay

FYI you can get a VERY good O/U for 800 or a thousand bucks. I got my Beretta 686 Onyx Pro for 900 shipped. Lightly used. I've seen better deals on the basic Onyx. You can find used Browning Citoris for that price pretty regularly if you look around.

TheTurtle

I do ALOT of trapshooting, and I've never seen a single person using a side by side. It really depends on what you're going to do with the gun though. If you're mainly going to do clay shooting and varminting, get a O/U, or even a cheap Remington 870 pump action for around 200$. Side by sides have been pretty much put down in the dirt by todays market.

I've got one of those Beretta 686 Onyx's in 12ga with a recoil reducer currently for sale at $1200 obo.

My current trap gun is a Beretta 682 Gold e. unsingle trap combo (un-single barrel and an O/U interchangeable) with a soft touch recoil reducer in the stock. Worth around $7,500

So yea, it all depends on your price range and your reasons for shooting it. In my opinion, go with an O/U.

CE1371

Having very little experience with shotguns, why is the side by side gone the way of the dodo?

MemphisMachinists

I used to hunt rabbits and squirels a lot and I used both. I think you can get used to either and I have noticed the price of O/U is high. I think I would have to adjust to a S/S. I saw a guy shooting skeet with an old S/S a few years ago that would put a third shell in his mouth for reloading and he would never miss.

DukeRustfield

Yeah, but that's not a reason.

Both guns angle their barrels, one left to right, one up and down. If you shoot at something before or beyond their zero point, the barrel trajectory will over converge.

The only thing I can think of is the over might be less cumbersome in the hand becase it's just 1 width, but I don't know.

GCBurner

My first shotgun was a side-by-side Stevens 311, and it still works fine. I mostly switched over to pumps, just for the magazine capacity, but I still like the feel of a double. I've never tried an O/U model.

1KPerDay

I read somewhere that they are more complicated and costlier to make properly. Dunno if it's true.

BTW if you check the shotgun forums there are a lot of people who would disagree with you about the SxS being extinct...

They're just not very cheap (the good ones). Figure about 1500 to 2 grand for a 'lower end' but good quality one and start about 3 grand for a 'nice' one. From what I've seen. AyA and Ugartechea seem very well regarded in that budget range.

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugarte...e1boxlock.html

http://www.hglomasgunmakers.com/new.html

TexIndian

Just a guess, but I always assumed that the reason O/U guns seem to dominate the market in recent times is that they give the shooter a better ability to see the target.

Most O/U guns have a rib and beads that stand above the top barrel while SxS guns usually have center beads that barely come as high as the barrels on each side. With an O/U, it's much easier to see not only down the top of the barrel, but also out to each side. Having a target get behind your barrels, even for a split second and even for just one eye, is really bad mojo in any kind of serious shooting.

As to the costs involved, you basically get what you pay for. Pumps and semi-autos are made from stamped parts while break-open guns are machined from solid stock. While CNC technology saves some machining time for sure, the barrel and receiver sections of any quality break-open gun are still hand-fitted to one another. They are not interchangeable with another gun, even the exact same model. A break-open gun has thicker steel and is much stronger than a stamped-out gun. Not even close in that department. Bottom line is that you're getting a lot more gun with a quality double barrel. As an example, my trap gun pictured below has fired over 250,000 rounds and is still waiting to meet its first repairman. I'd like to see any semi-auto do that. Of the six Browning break-open guns I've owned (and worked hard) over 30 years, I've spent a grand total of $15 in repairs. There may be a cheap brand or two out there that make junk, but not any of the recognized brands.

To get a better idea of how elevated ribs are used to help 'see the bird' in competition guns, compare the ribs on the three Brownings below: from the left, a field grade Citori, a Sporting Clays Special Citori, and a BT-99 Plus trap gun.


Edit to add: I'm not trying to knock any quality semi-auto or pump. I have several of each and I'd really like to add a Benelli. They have certain advantages over a double barrel, for sure. But in the long, long haul, I can't see even the Benelli standing up to a Browning or similar O/U.

TheTinMan

AFAIK the barrels are not "angled". They're shotguns after all, and the ends of the barrels are what, an inch or two apart? The pattern is a heck of a lot bigger than that 30 feet out.

Think about the sight picture for a moment. It's just easier to line your eye up on the rib of an over & under than it is to get a good visual line with a side-by-side. Unless of course you learned to shoot with a side-by-side like my Dad did, and then it doesn't make any difference.

Also, there's a little bit less recoil using the lower barrel of an O&D. More weight on top of it and a straighter line to your shoulder which allows a faster follow-up with your second shot. That's the theory anyway.

The Ruger Red Label is a high quality over & under at a reasonable price IMHO. I have their Sporting Clays version and it's great... for sporting clays!

bigbang

I like the classic look and the balance of my Suhl sidebyside with an english stock. Its so beautiful that it hangs on the wall of my living room. When I close my eyes, pull the stock into my shoulder and open my eyes again the frontsight sits perfectly aligned to the center of the rail between the barrels. And thats what brings home the bacon ( rabbit). And yes, the barrels are angeled, you see it when you do a little testing with slugs.
Wolf

DukeRustfield

Yeah, I definately know the barrels are angled.

What are those huge ribs on the tops of O/Us for anyway? I never could figure those out.

As a fixed breech shotgun, you also get the most kick from doubles--though I guess pump is technically the same. Of course you could be wacky and fire both barrels at the same time.

And you can also put 2 chokes in. Like a modified for the first shot and high for 2nd, assuming you just missed. Of course other shotguns give you more than 2 shots...

Setters4life

Most doubles are designed to converge their patterns from both barrels at the optimal 40 yds., be they an older quality SxS or the more in vogue O/U's seen today on the skeet and trap ranges. As an example, the American Parker was sighted in at the factory to converge its pattern to POA at 40 yds. If it didn't make the cut, it didn't leave the factory until the barrels were aligned properly. Most good American SxS doubles never survived the Great Depression and WWII certainly put a damper on things. It was after WWII that O/U's began to become so popular in the U.S. with Browning's great Superposed followed by the Beretta as good shotguns began to trickle in from Europe.

SxS's are great game guns, but O/U's (and single-barrel trap guns) began to find favor with the clay target clan with their single sighting plane. Vent-ribs were designed to offer a mirage-free sighting plane, free from heat distortion. Many liked the unobstructed sight picture even more. Winchester began putting a raised vent-rib on their SxS (the legendary M21) back in the 30's and many liked the fact or the perception that you were no longer looking down between two big drainage pipes. Difficult to find a quality used M21 back East here for less that $5,000 today. Shotguns are pointed, not aimed, but many SxS users have a difficult time NOT staring are those two barrels when they are side by side instead of the target beyond while maintaining a faint idea of where the front bead is.

You can't go wrong with a good Browning or Beretta O/U. New or used. Older Charles Daly's from the post-war era up to the end of the 70's are all quality shotguns and can be found for a good bargain; they merely slapped their name on imported Beretta's, Miroku's (Jap Browning's), some Merkel's, Heym's, Francotte's and other no-name Belgium guns. Older Winchester 101's (made in Japan) are quality O/U shotguns too. The only downside to purchasing an older shotgun is they may not have choke tubes but fixed chokes, and they won't be optimal for steel shot either. (I shoot with a lot of fellows who have Superposed's but have added after-market choke tubes to enhance versatility.) If you shoot really old SxS's like me, many have short chambers as well, necessitating the use of 2 1/2" shells.

Bowning's BSS (a SxS made by Miroku) is no longer made, but was popular and was inexpensive back in the 70's for less than $300 new. They are sought after today for their simplicity and quality. Today you can't find a used one for less than a $1,000.

SxS's like the old Steven's, Springfields, Ithaca NID's, Winchester M24's are solid workhorses and can be found today for a decent price used.

ismith

Ive been doing pretty fair with my beat up old 12 gauge Iver Johnson Champion shooting trap. Its the ugliest one in the league!

senecaap

My experience is with ducks, usually from a duck blind. The sxs is preferred with my group, due to the smaller arc it takes to open and reload, you need much more room for an o/u and room is not really plentifull in our blinds. I find I get a better sight picture and swing with my sxs on high flying ducks and geese and on up close pheasants and grouse.

Also, the sxs is nowhere near dead, call H&H,Purdey and Westley Richards, they seem to hold a differing view. When people want the best ($20-90,000 per gun) they generally go sxs. It is also the preferred set up for nitro express double rifles, the pinnacle of gunmaking. If you can find a good Spanish maker like an AyA (especially the ones imported from the 1960s-1980's) you will have a top notch working sxs at a higher level of quality and 1/2 the price of a Red Label from Ruger.