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Prone Positions help

This is a discussion on Prone Positions help within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Hey guys just got into high-power in Ruidoso NM Im working specifically on my prone position for the 200 yard match nothing more. I have ...


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Old August 18th, 2016, 09:52 PM   #1
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Prone Positions help

Hey guys just got into high-power in Ruidoso NM


Im working specifically on my prone position for the 200 yard match nothing more.


I have been doing some dry firing. I need some advice. How do i hold my m1a style rifle on the grip do i rap my hand all the way around it firm hand shake grip or loosely with my hand partially on the grip.

Also my prone position what are some good ways to practice dry fire wise for this position i was thinking about marking my matt with a marker in insure i get my arms and legs in the right position.

Also i have been kind of using a modified prone with my legs open left toe pointed to the ground. Should i work on my flexibility a bit so i look like a toy soldier.


Also the CMP coach said i needed to work on my follow threw please help me with this thanks

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Old August 19th, 2016, 01:50 AM   #2
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Daniel, Everyone has to find the best prone position that works for them. There is no "best" way that works for everyone since everyone has a different body type. Some like to have their firing side leg "hiked up" while others like to have both legs laying flat. I find it is best for stability to get my legs flat on the ground with the inside of my ankles touching the ground. Some folks like to have their firing hand thumb wrapped around the stock while others like to have the thumb along the side of the stock. If you do have your thumb wrapped around the stock, hold the rifle firmly but don't grip the stock hard - clenching your fingers makes it very hard to maintain good trigger control with your index finger. Some like to be directly behind the rifle while others like to be at a slight angle. I would very strongly suggest trying different positions while dry firing and discover what position allows you to hold the rifle sights on target the best. Watch to see if you pull the sights off target when you pull the trigger. Personally, I find the biggest issue is trigger control. You need to place your finger on the trigger so that you are pulling the trigger rearward and not inducing a sideways pull. Using a sling properly is also very important - it seats the rifle solidly into your shoulder. Some folks prefer a leather M1907 sling while others prefer an M1 cotton sling. Both work equally as well but if you do decide to use a leather sling buy a good one as opposed to an inexpensive sling. If cost is an issue buy a cotton M1 sling. I try to get my support arm as much under the stock as possible. That means that my forearm is hard against to side of the magazine. Good luck! Rick

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Old August 19th, 2016, 04:04 AM   #3
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Go to an Appleseed. Go to an Appleseed. Go to an Appleseed.

Very good training in position shooting and sling use.

Your firing hand (the one with your trigger finger) should have a good grip on the stock, but your trigger finger shouldn't be touching the stock, so adjust your grip as needed. Your support hand (the one up on the stock under the barrel) should not be gripping the rifle stock. The stock should just be resting in the hand. The sling, when properly adjusted, will keep it in place.

But really, get to an Appleseed. Two days of pretty intensive training in techniques and information that will help you. It's so intense that quite often it takes people two or three Appleseeds to really start understanding and putting into use what they're being taught/shown. When I was instructing I remember several CMP/NRA shooters who told me they picked up valuable information/techniques at Appleseeds.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 05:51 AM   #4
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You still need to excerpt a steady rearward pull with your firing hand, so a standard stock usually requires your thumb to be over the stock. If you have a Super Match or McMillan stock, the grip is more vertical and you can keep your thumb on the outside. The 7 minute mark of the video covers positions.


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Old August 19th, 2016, 05:57 AM   #5
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No need to have your ankles/heels on the ground or legs in wide V.
Sling leg usually straight back and aligned with your spine, foot however is comfortable.
Trigger leg bent and pulled forward for comfort and to roll your torso off the ground for better breathing and head position.

A fairly firm trigger hand grip on the stock, and try having the trigger near the crease of the joint rather than on the fleshy part - might give better 'straight back' pull and more consistent trigger feel.

When firing a shot, hold the trigger fully rearward, maintain your grip on the rifle, and SEE where the front sight is really pointed on firing.

Jay Kosta
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Old August 19th, 2016, 06:12 AM   #6
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Be it 200yd or much longer ranges, it is important that you establish your Natural Point of Aim/NPA for prone or other positions. Common way to determine this is once in prone position with sling is to look at your sight picture and then close your eyes for few seconds, look again and see if the sights are still where you first looked. If not then shift your body using your belt buckle as a pivot point and do the test again. When the sight picture remains the same after pivoting you are pretty much on NPA. Second step is to take hand used to fire the rifle and place it on mat and see if the sight picture moves and this is done while you are "in" the sling. If the rifle moves a lot, your sling pressure, placement of arm is not as vertical to the rifle as it should be, needs to be as directly under the forearm as possible. As mentioned it is difficult to state exact advise for everyone is different in body build, etc., but key thing is to have as little if any muscle control over the rifle, it should be as much skeletal as possible. Muscles are like stored energy devices, commonly known as springs, and they flex and tire over fairly short period of time as opposed to your bones. Old timers used to tell students that the sling had to be so tight that it hurt. Wrong, you must be comfortable for longer periods of remaining in the prone position or your shots will get away from where you intended them to be on the target. Sling is similar to your portable bench rest and if set up to provide you with support it is a huge advantage. I would encourage you to practice establishing our NPA and doing it several times until it becomes automatic for you prior to actual firing a shot, your scores will go up by doing so. Just a suggestion.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 06:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
No need to have your ankles/heels on the ground or legs in wide V.
Sling leg usually straight back and aligned with your spine, foot however is comfortable.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Jay, Your advice is appropriate for a a shooter that uses the "hike up" shooting leg positions. If you are laying flat, putting your ankles to the ground lowers your hips which increase your stability. Also, in this position, increased angle between your legs also increases you ability to accommodate recoil. Some like the "hike up" leg position because it makes it more comfortable to breath and in this position breathing affects where the rifle is pointing to a lesser degree. The flat position is generally better for stability but you must fire at your natural respiratory pause since the muzzle moves up and down as you breath. If you notice, most military snipers use the flat position with their legs spread quite wide. Rick

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Old August 19th, 2016, 08:12 AM   #8
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So many good advises here. I would also add that Appleseed is a great event if you haven't attended. It teaches you the Natural Point of Aim, and proper sling usage, both critical in becoming a competent rifleman.

I would say finding a good place for your cheek to align with your sights are critical too. If you cannot put your head looking through your sights the exact same time, its hard to have consistent point of impact. Try to dry fire, and if able, find someone to push on you abruptly to simulate recoil, and see how well your npoa remains. It should tell you a bit how well you're doing.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 08:25 AM   #9
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Also my prone position what are some good ways to practice dry fire wise for this position i was thinking about marking my matt with a marker in insure i get my arms and legs in the right position.

For CMP since you drop into position I "visualize" where my knees, Right hand and Left elbow will land once my prep period has ended and I'm getting up to stand.

Also i have been kind of using a modified prone with my legs open left toe pointed to the ground. Should i work on my flexibility a bit so i look like a toy soldier.

Flexibility is good, but find a prone position that works/most comfortable. The drawn up leg prone is still the most popular with the upper ranking shooters. You are off the stomach and diaphragm reducing pressure and breathing induced movement.

Also the CMP coach said i needed to work on my follow threw please help me with this thanks[/quote]

As mentioned, working on NPA with dry fire is great. Close eyes, breathe in/out, re-open eyes. Follow thru means keeping focus on that front sight even as recoil rocks you. I admit, it is hard to concentrate on. That is the main thing I try and concentrate on when live fire practice.

Good luck!

Thanks from daniel17319

Last edited by smoothy8500; August 19th, 2016 at 05:09 PM.
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Old August 19th, 2016, 08:48 AM   #10
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Question on dry firing m14/m1a... Does it require snap caps to do on a regular basis, or is the design fine to do empty?

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Old August 19th, 2016, 10:24 AM   #11
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I never bother with snap cap with the Garand, troops used to dry fire a lot more than we'll do in a lifetime.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 10:53 AM   #12
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I don't know of any "real" military gun that would be damaged by dry fire.

A lot of the newer, cooler semi automatic pistols, as well as most older .22 firearms can be damaged by dry firing.

Some of the newer handguns break pins inside them (at least I read it on the internet>>>>) and .22's can damage the edge of the chamber where the firing pin strikes it. I've seen one of those, a Ruger .22 semi automatic pistol with a gouge/bumps on the edge of the chamber than made it difficult to chamber an round and then it would not extract. My dad always said pulling the trigger on his dad's old Western Field .22 without a round in the chamber would result in a broken firing pin.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 10:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetMeat4Me View Post
Question on dry firing m14/m1a... Does it require snap caps to do on a regular basis, or is the design fine to do empty?
The military has been dry firing for decades. No harm to the M1 or M14. Here are two great videos. Watch the last couple minutes of the first one to see how recoil is simulated when using dummy cartridges.

https://youtu.be/QoZ_usoFVSc?t=1h11m9s
https://youtu.be/9bmdxZwvkoQ

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Old August 19th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #14
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Gentleman ill respond to your help when i get back STAY TUNED busy right now




THANKS for the HELP

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Old August 19th, 2016, 12:41 PM   #15
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Try this.

https://youtu.be/0UE8RDSyrJY

When I started in high power, training on the range is mostly prone shooting. Backtrack a little, before I even attempted to shoot prone I shot on the bench till I can clean the reduced 600 at 200. The purpose of that initial training was to burn that sight picture what it takes to shoot a center shot. On the bench being rock steady is a great venue to learn to shoot with irons and be able to call your shots.

Back to prone, for every shot I fired in standing I shot 10 in probe. Just the opposite to others and counter intuitive since standing is the most difficult for most to master. I did dry standing at home every other night for about 30 minutes at a time. As others have mentioned, NPA is everything and trigger control. Pexpletive being so differently built I will not worry too much about classic book head placement on the stock. Comfort is the key. I merely drop my head on the stock where it naturally wants to be with no consideration for any "weld" When shooting in team matches pair firing, if you strain your neck muscles, you won't last. As the video shows kicking in the forward elbow would help you. You will notice as you ride the recoil when that rear aperture and the front sight go straight back at you, that shot will be centered if you were zeroed. Where the front sight twitched the shot will will be in that clock position.

Have you tried to clean the target from the bench? If you have not, stay on the bench till you can.

I think you are on the right track to train in prone. Remember, at least 50 % of the shots in the high power matches will be shot on your belly. Once you master the slow fire prone, rapid is not that far behind, I look at repI'd as a faster pace slow fire.

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