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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Been seeing stuff come out about using scopes in service rifle? Any body have any info? I think this would be bad for the sport....


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Old September 1st, 2015, 02:50 PM   #1
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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

Been seeing stuff come out about using scopes in service rifle? Any body have any info? I think this would be bad for the sport.

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Old September 1st, 2015, 02:53 PM   #2
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the military uses optics on their service rifles. however, I don't believe they should allow them...

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Old September 1st, 2015, 02:55 PM   #3
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Yeah I'm interested in some more info on all of this to. Will camp perry allow optics with rattle battle,NTI, Presidents match and the SAI M1A Match?

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Old September 1st, 2015, 03:14 PM   #4
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Gentlemen,

Here's the scoop:
New rules package so far…. These are the changes thus far that are being discussed.

Service Rifle:
1) The only alibis that will be permitted are range alibis (no fault of the shooter).

2) Optics will be allowed on rifles that weigh 11.5 lbs., total with optic installed. Optics will only be allowed on the AR platform. The optic maximum magnification will be 4.5 power. There will not be a separate category for optical sighted ARs.

3) No weight limit on iron sighted, non-optical sighted ARs, i.e. you can shoot the current configured service rifle just as it is with no weight restrictions.

4) Only .223/5.56 NATO will be allowed for ARs, .308/7.62 NATO for M14 platforms, .308/7.62 NATO or .30/06 for M1 Garands.

5) M-4 type stocks will be allowed on the AR platforms.

If the rules pass the up-coming CMP Rules Committee meeting the new rules package will be implemented in the 2016 CMP Rules for Service Rifle and Service Pistol. Just a note a service rifle with no lead front or back weighs 10.9 pounds with carry handle installed. Remove the carry handle and install a 1-4.5 power scope and rings you get 11.25 lbs. With that said we set the weight limit with optics at 11.5 lbs. If you want to shoot with a scope you will not be able to lead the rifle. If you want to shoot with iron sights go as heavy as you like.

Best Regards,

Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program

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Old September 1st, 2015, 04:19 PM   #5
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I'm for allowing optics. I personally shoot irons, but younger guys coming out of the military are used to RCO's. Anything that gets people to come into the sport is good. I'm sure there was grumbling when they talked about allowing the plastic "mouse guns" in the competitions against iron and wood.

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Old September 1st, 2015, 05:29 PM   #6
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Shooting with a scope is not what service rifle shooting is about.

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Old September 1st, 2015, 06:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
I'm for allowing optics. I personally shoot irons, but younger guys coming out of the military are used to RCO's. Anything that gets people to come into the sport is good. I'm sure there was grumbling when they talked about allowing the plastic "mouse guns" in the competitions against iron and wood.
Concur

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Old September 1st, 2015, 06:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
I'm for allowing optics. I personally shoot irons, but younger guys coming out of the military are used to RCO's. Anything that gets people to come into the sport is good. I'm sure there was grumbling when they talked about allowing the plastic "mouse guns" in the competitions against iron and wood.
This is a fundamental change and removes one of the fundamentals of marksmanship. It isn't even remotely comparable to the introduction of the AR15 into the sport.

It will double the price of entry. "Combat optics" won't be remotely competitive. It'll be target scopes. Reliable target optics are not cheap. Making it more expensive will not draw people into the sport. It'll kill junior programs.

For other reasons, it'll cause some people, like me, to exit the sport. I have zero interest in using an optic for anything. I'll take up Palma. Considering what they did to Service Pistol this year, I am not a fan of Mark Johnson.

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Last edited by missilegeek; September 1st, 2015 at 07:13 PM.
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Old September 1st, 2015, 07:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by 1911a1 View Post
Shooting with a scope is not what service rifle shooting is about.
Service rifles today do use optics so it sort of is what service rifle shooting is all about. It's just not what has been used in the past. Rick

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Old September 1st, 2015, 08:05 PM   #10
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people in the military use bipods why not let them use bi pods too. i understand wanting to get people in the sport but this is the wrong way to go about it. basic marksmanship is what service rifle shooting is about and lets face it hp service rifle shooting has nothing to do with curent military training. not only that but alot of the time when people finish shooting hp service rifle they move on to other high power sports for example match rifle, palma, long range, mid range matches and so on and using an optic to start out would not help anyone latter on. on another topic i was in the marine corp from 2004 to 2008 and when i was getting out they were starting to phase out iron sights in the rifle qualification and using acogs. so by the time the new marines got to the fleet alot of guys that never shot before maybe did't get issued an optic and didnt know how to use iron sights. bad deal!

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Old September 1st, 2015, 09:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911a1 View Post
Shooting with a scope is not what service rifle shooting is about.
That's only because "service rifle shooting" began back in the stone age days before optics were really around and frankly there's a lot of gray hairs and bifocals at service rifle meets so a low-powered optic might make it more fun for some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by missilegeek View Post
"Combat optics" won't be remotely competitive. It'll be target scopes.
Right now they are saying 4.5X or less and there are weight requirements so it's ACOG or bust at least until someone comes up with a lightweight, low powered target scope specifically for that type of shooting.

JMHO but without allowing lead weights I think it might be hard to set up a competitive ACOG platform within the weight requirements.

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Old September 1st, 2015, 10:37 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 1911a1 View Post
people in the military use bipods why not let them use bi pods too. i understand wanting to get people in the sport but this is the wrong way to go about it. basic marksmanship is what service rifle shooting is about and lets face it hp service rifle shooting has nothing to do with curent military training. not only that but alot of the time when people finish shooting hp service rifle they move on to other high power sports for example match rifle, palma, long range, mid range matches and so on and using an optic to start out would not help anyone latter on. on another topic i was in the marine corp from 2004 to 2008 and when i was getting out they were starting to phase out iron sights in the rifle qualification and using acogs. so by the time the new marines got to the fleet alot of guys that never shot before maybe did't get issued an optic and didnt know how to use iron sights. bad deal!
Well, you will find it interesting that the issue of using optics for service rifle competition was pushed hard by the Marine Corps. Their rationale was that basically all infantry rifles are now using optics and to ban them from service rifle competition was contrary to the purpose of service rifle competition - which is to compete with basically the same rifles as used by US troops. The rules do give one the option of sticking with iron sights and for some that will make sense. Optics offer both advantages and disadvantages - it's not simply a plus in all respects. I see this as sort of the same thing as allowing M1's and M14 type rifles to be used in competition as well as M16/AR15's. You can stick with the classical weapons or transition to the current type of weapons - your choice. Rick

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Old September 1st, 2015, 11:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
I'm for allowing optics. I personally shoot irons, but younger guys coming out of the military are used to RCO's. Anything that gets people to come into the sport is good. I'm sure there was grumbling when they talked about allowing the plastic "mouse guns" in the competitions against iron and wood.

Actually there wasn't much grumbling at all. It was legal for competition for quite a while but wasn't used because no one had figured out the higher bullet weight advantage and they were seriously lacking at 600 yards.

Then came the 69 gr Sierra HPBTM and it really set the game on its' ear. It went from being M14 dominated to AR-15 dominated in a very short time span.

As I recall the Army showed up at Perry with their plastic guns and heavy bullets and cleaned everyone's clock. They had been legal for some time before that and on reduced range shooting had performed quite well.

Allowing scopes would seem like a serious advantage but realistically a 4.5 power scope is harder to shoot tight groups with than iron sights, particularly when you get back at 600 yards. Keep in mind too that the ACOG reticle is meant to put shots somewhere on the body of the target and not necessarily to shoot small groups.

Of course someone will come up with a new reticle just for targets and it won't be a crosshair.

My guess is they will make it concentric rings which subtend exactly what the aiming black should cover at each distance.

I am sure a lot of people didn't like that the "service rifles" did not have to match the military version in every parameter. Weight being the big one. If it were really about shooting well with a service rifle then it should also be that the rifle matches the physical characteristics of the rifle currently in service to include weight.

Lead in the butt makes shooting faster at rapid fire but really doesn't do anything to the accuracy of the rifle. My guess is going scoped will have about the same effect.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 04:22 AM   #14
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There are several good scopes right now. Leupold makes a 1-4x that is short, light weight and has a sufficient reticle. The parallax is fixed but for 25 bucks plus shipping you can have the Leupold custom shop fix the parallax at whatever you desire. The best seems to be 250 yards. With that distance the maximum parallax error at 600 is only about 1.75".
Target Turrets are also available.
https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shoo...vx-2-1-4x20mm/
Scopes are different and will take some adaptive training. For those of you with young eyes they will not be an advantage. For us grey beards that are presbyopic it will be a big help.
Having said that I'm still not a fan of this change.
We will see EIC leg cut scores go up by about 5 points and most of that will be at 300 and 600. Probably won't see the scores at the very top go up much, if any.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by noob14s View Post
Right now they are saying 4.5X or less and there are weight requirements so it's ACOG or bust at least until someone comes up with a lightweight, low powered target scope specifically for that type of shooting.
I saw the experimental optic service rifles AMU used during NRA Week. They were not ACOGs.

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