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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Originally Posted by Robert84010 I find it interesting to see how quickly some people will defeat themselves....Your shooting and how you handle match conditions is ...


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Old January 5th, 2016, 03:52 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Robert84010 View Post
I find it interesting to see how quickly some people will defeat themselves....Your shooting and how you handle match conditions is what earns eic points.
You're looking at this thru the wrong end of the telescope (yeah, pun intended). Assuming anyone who opposes the rule change does so out of concern some guy with a scope is going to beat him is wrong.

Three other points:

(1) Making a free will choice not to participate in any sport is not "defeat".

(2) There is a hell of a lot more to rifle competition than EIC matches.

(3) Other than "as issued" CMP matches, "service rifle" shooters are shooting match rifles disguised to look like a service rifle. Why not just drop the charade and shoot a match rifle"?

In match rifle all marksmanship fundamentals still apply. And you can compete without pretending the rifle is something it isn't.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 05:22 PM   #107
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You're looking at this thru the wrong end of the telescope (yeah, pun intended). Assuming anyone who opposes the rule change does so out of concern some guy with a scope is going to beat him is wrong.

Three other points:

(1) Making a free will choice not to participate in any sport is not "defeat".

(2) There is a hell of a lot more to rifle competition than EIC matches.

(3) Other than "as issued" CMP matches, "service rifle" shooters are shooting match rifles disguised to look like a service rifle. Why not just drop the charade and shoot a match rifle"?

In match rifle all marksmanship fundamentals still apply. And you can compete without pretending the rifle is something it isn't.
I'm just trying to motivate people to look at the bigger badge picture, changes happen, persevere. seems to me the rules made it closer to what a current service rifle is and still a truckload of guys are complaining about the change. go figure. The changes don't make scopes mandatory so shoot a match winning score anyway you want. I could understand that if next year ALL eic points are won by people using scopes, then I could understand some resistance, but nobody had even shot a match yet.

I guess I never worried about some big philosophical agenda when I shot. I just practiced to get my skills in the top 10%. Made the rifle cut at Perry the only time I shot there. I didn't like some of the rules but I thought the overall goal of making Distinguished was worth the effort.

as far as looking at this from the wrong end, I don't really think so, the back of my pistol badge makes no mention of what ammo or pistol I shot. my rifle badge also makes no mention of what sights I used or ammo were used. I guess all I can say to you is that you should have legged out years ago when the rules were perfect to you.

I'm happy for you that you are moving on to events you consider worthy.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #108
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the change from 14's to the 16 - note on rickgman's

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Missilegeek, I heard from an oldtimer that when they went from '03's to M1's, it was quite a change, too. Many of the oldtimers considered the M1's to be "bullet squirters" and bemoaned the fact that shooters didn't any longer have to master bolt manipulation while trying to maintain position in rapid fire. Optical sights are simply part of the evolution of service rifles. Good luck! Rick
I hated the 14 to 16 change. The 16 offhand sounded like a spring was gonna come thru the stock when you shot a hard cheekweld. In position, sling tension was critical to your zero. I shot only rack grade 16's in State matches & they were JUNK after the armorer-tuned heavy barrel 14's.
& the 16's I used shot like junk, too. The triggers felt like something you could use to open a tin can with - ugh! (This was in the 70's). I had to shoot the 16 in certain matches, but the nat'l traveling team used beautifully accurate 14's with consistent, accurate trigger pulls.
I know the AR's are different now, way better (I call'em Space Guns). And I take back all the nasty thoughts I had 45 years ago,,,,
Now I shoot a DPMS LR-308, all gussied up with a 20 power scope at, believe it or not, benchrest matches.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 08:24 PM   #109
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I'm happy for you that you are moving on to events you consider worthy.
And I'm happy for you that you have all that bling you mentioned to pack around. Are you working on smallbore prone distinguished yet? That is a very small club.

Back when you paid a $5 fee and shot "free"ammo, driving for a few hours to shoot a 50 shot EIC match had some appeal.

These days between high priced gas, high priced motels and paying for my own ammo, driving very far for a 50 shot match doesn't get me all lathered up in anticipation.

For NRA matches I've been thinking of putting a hooded aperture front on my M1A. That simple change would cancel out any suspicion that it is a service rifle. Might even swap the M1907 sling for an ISSF unit to make the change complete.

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #110
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And I'm happy for you that you have all that bling you mentioned to pack around. Are you working on smallbore prone distinguished yet? That is a very small club.
.
To put my answer in the context of this conversation. I thought about shooting smallbore, but I don't like some of the rules.

yes, it's a very small club. Since the closest regional match to me is over 10 hours away and there isn't even a sanctioned match in my whole state, it will carry on without my attendance.

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Old January 6th, 2016, 07:50 AM   #111
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Oh dear, I'm getting a bad headache reading all this...

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Old January 6th, 2016, 08:03 AM   #112
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Oh dear, I'm getting a bad headache reading all this...
I totally concur!

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Old January 6th, 2016, 08:45 AM   #113
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To put my answer in the context of this conversation. I thought about shooting smallbore, but I don't like some of the rules.
Yeah the rules suck.

Shoot two 20 shot stages then take a 20 to 40 minute break. Repeat until you've fired 160 for record. Obviously a sport for wimps.

No 600 yd long strolls up and down a range humping 60 lb of gear. No pulling targets. All that good exercise is missed in SB prone. Can't work on your tan either shooting from a covered firing point.

Oh yeah - no hours of quality time spent at the reloading bench....the list of disadvantages is long. Hard to believe anyone would actually do it.

Looping back to the original point - given the CMPs purpose, the fact that the DoD now prefers optical sights obliges the CMP to follow along. If it keeps more people in the game, good.

To me the downside is a lot of people will never bother to learn how to use iron sights. And someday they may not have any spare batteries with them.

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Old January 6th, 2016, 11:19 AM   #114
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Yeah the rules suck.


Looping back to the original point - given the CMPs purpose, the fact that the DoD now prefers optical sights obliges the CMP to follow along. If it keeps more people in the game, good.

To me the downside is a lot of people will never bother to learn how to use iron sights. And someday they may not have any spare batteries with them.
I agree - as long as the military uses optical sights on service rifles, their use in service rifle matches is sort of logical. By the way, many issued scopes don't need batteries for anything other than reticle illumination and they will perform perfectly without illumination as long as there is decent ambient light. Rick

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Old January 6th, 2016, 04:34 PM   #115
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I agree - as long as the military uses optical sights on service rifles, their use in service rifle matches is sort of logical. By the way, many issued scopes don't need batteries for anything other than reticle illumination and they will perform perfectly without illumination as long as there is decent ambient light. Rick
Last Sunday I shot a friends AR15 equipped with some sort of red dot sight. That was a 1st for me. I can see why DoD has gone that way - training has got to be much faster and above all cheaper.

We were banging away at a steel plate 280 yd out. Put the dot on the plate, let it go and clang. Head position did not seem to matter. Obviously sight alignment and picture are not part of that equation. The human skill requirement is reduced as well so training must be easier.

I do not mean to imply using an optical sight is a crutch. Here comes the "but" you're expecting - But I have learned that relying on technology has a definite downside. Therefore I believe folks ought to learn how to use iron sights.

Complicated gadgets and gizmos malfunction more than simple stuff. Just a fact of life. The overall reliability of a system is equal the reliability of all it's individual components multiplied by each other.

A two component system with individual component reliability of 0.9 (90%) each is:

0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81 (81%) overall system reliability

A five component system with individual component reliability of 0.9 (90%) each is:

0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.59 (59%) overall system reliability

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:04 PM   #116
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Last Sunday I shot a friends AR15 equipped with some sort of red dot sight. That was a 1st for me. I can see why DoD has gone that way - training has got to be much faster and above all cheaper.

We were banging away at a steel plate 280 yd out. Put the dot on the plate, let it go and clang. Head position did not seem to matter. Obviously sight alignment and picture are not part of that equation. The human skill requirement is reduced as well so training must be easier.
NMC_EXP, Red dot sights most definitely have an advantage under some circumstances - like rapid engagements at close to mid ranges against mansized targets. However, they are not appropriate for most types of precision shooting - like service rifle competition. A conventional crosswire reticle works best for precision shooting. It is also necessary to have precise, repeatable windage and elevation adjustments. That's what puts many of the cheaper scopes out of the running. You want the same sort of repeatability that you get with iron sights. With conventional scopes, there are some issues with parallax error if one doesn't align the eye with the center of the exit pupil but that can be minimized and often totally eliminated with practice. Where I believe that scopes really give a shooter an advantage that is often overlooked is being able to apply "favors" in a very repeatable manner - even with modest magnification. Scopes also are not as sensitive to light level as iron sights. The center of the bull is the center of the bull regardless of the lighting conditions and the light gathering capability of a good scope helps on an overcast day. I think most folks will like scopes once they get use to them but they most certainly mean change. Rick

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:28 PM   #117
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NMC_EXP, Red dot sights most definitely have an advantage under some circumstances ..... A conventional crosswire reticle works best for precision shooting. It is also necessary to have precise, repeatable windage and elevation adjustments......Where I believe that scopes really give a shooter an advantage that is often overlooked is being able to apply "favors" in a very repeatable manner - even with modest magnification. Rick
Rick

Does the military use anything but red dot / holographic type optics? As in are conventional crosshair type scopes used on M16s by typical riflemen or only by snipers?

I do shoot some smallbore and finally did start using a scope when allowed. I agree that holding off/favoring is a big advantage. The top level SB shooters can and do hold off very effectively with irons. I'm not in that crowd.


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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:30 PM   #118
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The Army has a lot of ACOGs and individuals down range can use pretty much what they want, at least the units I was in when I was in.

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:40 PM   #119
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The Army has a lot of ACOGs and individuals down range can use pretty much what they want, at least the units I was in when I was in.
Sounds like if the CMP bases its scope rule on standardized Government Issue, there is no standard.

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Old January 6th, 2016, 05:42 PM   #120
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Sounds like if the CMP bases its scope rule on standardized Government Issue, there is no standard.
LOL, yep

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