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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Originally Posted by brycom1 I don't know bout this.. .The more I think of it, the more it doesn't sit well with me.. Add 1" ...


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Old January 4th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #76
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I don't know bout this.. .The more I think of it, the more it doesn't sit well with me..

Add 1" to your barrel???? You're a match rifle

Remove 1" off your barrel??? You're a match rifle

Add a rail to the forend for a bipod??? You're a match rifle

Add a 4 power scope????? You're a service rifle?!?!?



If you want a scope, fine.. Your in the match class now... That's my opinion
With the upcoming rule changes, you are wrong. The new service rifle will allow collapsable stocks, barrels from 16 to 20 inch, optics up to 4.5X power, A1 or A2 hand grips (don't understand this rule given the other massive changes), and is chambered in .223/5.56. Pretty much anything goes as long it's derived from the M16/AR-15 rifle and the barrel doesn't exceed 20 inches.


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Old January 4th, 2016, 07:52 PM   #77
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With the upcoming rule changes, you are wrong. The new service rifle will allow collapsable stocks, barrels from 16 to 20 inch, optics up to 4.5X power, A1 or A2 hand grips (don't understand this rule given the other massive changes), and is chambered in .223/5.56. Pretty much anything goes as long it's derived from the M16/AR-15 rifle.
All I know is that I've shot my last NTI. CMP can shove their new rules. Service Rifle is dead.

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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:02 PM   #78
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Pick up a copy of the Army Times or look up some "combat camera" photos...the real service rifle has evolved.
The last 15 years of deployments, R&D, and rapid fielding have finally pushed the military out of the dark ages. Weapons are now tailored to the mission and/or the individual operating them.
I haven't shot competitively in 35 years but these new "changes" might bring me back. They represent the real world service rifle as used today not 30 years ago.

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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:22 PM   #79
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All I know is that I've shot my last NTI. CMP can shove their new rules. Service Rifle is dead.
I definitely understand your sentiment and reasoning for decided to hang it up where service rifle is concerned, but I do have to disagree with your last sentence. Given the optics and the multitude of older shooters who had to hang up the service rifle because they simply couldn't see well enough...this might well be it's rebirth, time will tell.

Also, no one has to use optics... one can still bring their A2 along with their "A" game and win the day.

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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #80
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We need to bear in mind that R&D on guided small arms projectiles has been in progress for some time. When they get that operational will that ammo be adopted for competition?

Looking in my crystal ball maybe someday we can all just stay home and "shoot" postal EIC matches using networked SCATT trainers. Maybe go Distinguished without burning a grain of powder, wallowing in the mud, having alibis and refires and suffering heat exhaustion and all the other annoyances that go with it.

Question is, how much technology is too much relative to the human side of the equation?

Yes the equipment has changed. But so has what is expected of a rifleman. When it gets right down to it, a modern rifleman is expected to locate the bad guys, then call in air or artillery to do the killing. I'm pretty sure any unit leader who found an equal force of bad guys and decided to attack the old fashioned way, when air or artillery was an option, would have a short and unhappy career.

The future ain't what it used to be.

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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #81
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Pick up a copy of the Army Times or look up some "combat camera" photos...the real service rifle has evolved.
The last 15 years of deployments, R&D, and rapid fielding have finally pushed the military out of the dark ages. Weapons are now tailored to the mission and/or the individual operating them.
I haven't shot competitively in 35 years but these new "changes" might bring me back. They represent the real world service rifle as used today not 30 years ago.
Current Army regs require irons to earn EIC points. This is a marksmanship sport, not combat training.


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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:49 PM   #82
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I definitely understand your sentiment and reasoning for decided to hang it up where service rifle is concerned, but I do have to disagree with your last sentence. Given the optics and the multitude of older shooters who had to hang up the service rifle because they simply couldn't see well enough...this might well be it's rebirth, time will tell.

Also, no one has to use optics... one can still bring their A2 along with their "A" game and win the day.
What I liked about SR was the common platform that you adapted to. That is now gone. Might as well shoot match rifle from now on. Palma is still irons only, so that is an option. I don't own a rifle optic and I don't intend to start.


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Old January 4th, 2016, 09:00 PM   #83
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I completely understand the frustration pairing an experienced eye with iron sights.

However, normal vision problems can be overcome by correctly tweaking your normal eye scrip or by adding a lens to the rear sight. This may not easy and can be a trial & error process but it can be done.

If a person wants to stick with irons.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 06:33 AM   #84
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Current Army regs require irons to earn EIC points. This is a marksmanship sport, not combat training.
True, AR 350-66 states "In EIC matches, iron sights only will continue to be used and will not be replaced by optics." and is dated 27 AUG 2012. I would expect this to change when the new CMP rules come out.

As to marksmanship vs combat training.
The CMPs key functions are to:
1. To instruct citizens of the United States in marksmanship;
2. To promote practice and safety in the use of firearms;
3. To conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors.
Notice the competition part is the LAST thing the are tasked to do.

The Army manual, FM 3-22.9 "RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP
M16-/M4-SERIES WEAPONS" is about marksmanship, not combat training although the two do go together. There is a lot of info about optical sights and their usage in the manual also.

Continue shooting irons if that is what you like. I do think this rule change will bring more people out to compete, some new blood and some more "mature" that need help to see the targets again.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 07:55 AM   #85
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Continue shooting irons if that is what you like. I do think this rule change will bring more people out to compete, some new blood and some more "mature" that need help to see the targets again.
I wouldn't bet on the AR changing any time soon. At least Praslick was sure it wouldn't. Army completely ignored CMP's service pistol changes.

It's not just "irons" I liked: it's the common platform. The playing field is no longer level. Therefore, it's less a marksmanship contest than it was. So, they can keep it.

I really don't think increasing the cost of entry will bring in many new people. It isn't the rifles that are keeping them out, it's the course of fire.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 10:49 AM   #86
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Missilegeek, you're wrong on this one. Marksmanship will still be the only thing that wins matches. Marksmanship is not some 50+ year old with a solid hold struggling to see a post sight. Marksmanship is a solid hold and solid fundamentals. Now everyone can see the same and we now get to award the best marksman.


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Old January 5th, 2016, 11:08 AM   #87
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Missilegeek, you're wrong on this one. Marksmanship will still be the only thing that wins matches. Marksmanship is not some 50+ year old with a solid hold struggling to see a post sight. Marksmanship is a solid hold and solid fundamentals. Now everyone can see the same and we now get award the best marksman.
No, everyone still can't "see the same". Those continuing to shoot irons, at least.

Why not just remove the distinction between "match rifle" and "service rifle", then? The playing field is no longer level now, so why not? How about just moving everything to Any/Any and be done with it.

I liked this sport to the point of expending every day off for a decade or more on it. Now, it's going to be very different - such that I never would've started in it to begin with. I find that a bit annoying - especially the rapidity and near-secrecy this was decided in. I don't care for the CMP's management of this sport one bit.

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Old January 5th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #88
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No, everyone still can't "see the same". Those continuing to shoot irons, at least.

Why not just remove the distinction between "match rifle" and "service rifle", then? The playing field is no longer level now, so why not? How about just moving everything to Any/Any and be done with it.

I liked this sport to the point of expending every day off for a decade or more on it. Now, it's going to be very different - such that I never would've started in it to begin with. I find that a bit annoying - especially the rapidity and near-secrecy this was decided in. I don't care for the CMP's management of this sport one bit.
Missilegeek, I am truly sorry that you have decided not to continue shooting service rifle matches. However, things do change over time in every sporting endeavour. Change is nothing new to marksmanship competition. It has evolved tremendously over the years. Some folks were pleased by the changes but some like yourself were not. That is one thing that will not change - everyone has a different take on xompetition rules. I have never believed that there is such a thing as level playing field. We have both seen where weather favors one relay over another. Heck, I've seen where the wind value was grossly different from one part of the firing line to another during the same relay. Some folks are also awful lucky whereas others get crappy breaks. One only needs to look at the various weapons on the firing line to recognize that not everyone's tools are really the same even though all comply with the equipment rules. I am really sorry that you feel so bad about this change but each of us has to select what types of shooting make us happy and I hope you find what makes you happy. Rick

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Old January 5th, 2016, 11:55 AM   #89
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Why not just remove the distinction between "match rifle" and "service rifle", then? The playing field is no longer level now, so why not? How about just moving everything to Any/Any and be done with it.

.


Bingo!


Lets just say I want to use a 22" barrel on my AR with irons... I'm now in the match class.

But old Fred over there has a $1000 piece of glass on his AR and he's competing with the service rifles???

As from the beginning.. My problem is not with allowing scopes.. Its what class they're in.



And I know we need more people in our sport but I would think its better to attract the YOUNG shooters. Not saying I don't like the older guys. They're great and I've learned a lot from them, but as always the future is with the youth.

Why not make a class called the "modern class" or something like that.. Where any AR configuration is allowed including up to a 4X scope. That would attract a lot of younger guys with their tact'd out ARs

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Old January 5th, 2016, 12:11 PM   #90
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223/5.56, 20" barrel, handguards must resemble either A2 or M4, adjustable in length only buttstock. Boom! Best shooter wins. Limiting the scope power to 4.5 means the hard holders with good eyes can still win shooting irons. What's not to like?

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