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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Few things come to mind where the scope offers any advantage; bad lighting conditions like relay 1 in NTIT, older eyes at 600 (I missed ...


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Old October 29th, 2015, 10:30 PM   #46
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Few things come to mind where the scope offers any advantage; bad lighting conditions like relay 1 in NTIT, older eyes at 600 (I missed some cleans at 6 due to elevation shots) and definitely at 1000 yards. A 4X at 1K gives you repeatable sight picture.

At age 63 I will take a 4X, my belief I can spot my bad shots much easier than irons or maybe stop a bad shot before executing it.

What I am afraid of, when see my wobble in standing and I will freak out and exacerbate my already bad trigger control and start jerking more shots.... I still remember when I shot sillywet years ago with 24X scope and never thought about it.

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Old December 26th, 2015, 12:17 PM   #47
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Well, I am now thinking of getting back into highpower with the rule change of optics. I was into competition "pretty heavy" 10-15 years ago, then slowly started shooting less. Back problems were part of the reason, then eyes getting old pretty much kept me away. I had 4 classifications "expire" because I didn`t shoot matches for 3-4 years.
I was a expert in X course and long range, sharpshooter in con. smallbore prone, and marksman in metric prone (still have a lowly marksman card in mid-range prone). The sights just keep fuzzing out too bad. Even have a Bob Jones lens in my AR service rifle sight, and have tried different lens in my Anschutz irons. The first string is usually acceptable, then goes downhill from there. It gets very frustrating!
I shoot ok with my 25 power Sightron scope on my Anschutz-still screw up plenty of shots though believe me.
I guess to summarize;
"When I was younger, I would have been against this rule change. Now that I`m old, fat, gimpy, wiser, and need reading glasses, I can happily accept it". Thanks.
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Old December 29th, 2015, 10:24 AM   #48
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I appreciate that many of you are being optimistic about the CMP optic rule. On a few of the "other" forums there are shooters that plain out despise the new rule and fear it as a total advantage over traditional iron shooters. I won't comment on "If" there will be veteran shooters using optics as an advancement advantage, but me personally see the rule as a great step in attracting new entries into HP. I'm happy to comment if it were not for the new rule I would not be able to compete as there is no way I can safely identify my target board at beyond 400 yds. I have old, extremely nearsighted eyes, and I built a WOA match service rifle with an inexpensive Bushnell AR 1-4x optic I can clearly identify my lane thus preventing accidental cross shooting a target(s) at 600 yds. In speaking with many up and coming AR shooters at my club most all are very interested but also intimidated by HP competition , mainly of fear of general shooting beyond 300 yds. Out of 1800 members at my club, we currently have about 200 that are 200 meter qualified , and we have about 120 that are 600 yd qualified. So you can see most shooters never go beyond 100 yds. I volunteered recently for one of my clubs HP competitions and I was very impressed at the skills required to shoot well, you HP guys know some awesome tricks and methods that only experience would have tough. If I join you in a match, it will ONLY be to observe, make a few new friends, learn a skill that unfortunately I missed out from the military, laugh and just have some fun. I think I speak soundly for most all potential new HP shooters as well..


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Old December 29th, 2015, 10:59 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by richkay228 View Post
In speaking with many up and coming AR shooters at my club most all are very interested but also intimidated by HP competition , mainly of fear of general shooting beyond 300 yds.
I understand the intimidation factor with distance. The thing to remember about NRA Highpower competition is that the diameter of the black bullseye is scaled for distance.

When you look at the sight picture, specifically the relationship of the front sight post width to the width of the bull, it is the same whether it is a 100 yd target or a 600 yard target.

All you need to do is get a 100 yd zero then add the appropriate number of clicks of elevation to be centered at 200, 300 or 600 yards. Do this and it will be close to the middle.

Wind becomes a factor at 200 and beyond but there are published wind diagrams. Estimate speed and direction, check the chart, put the windage on the sight and fire.

The rear sights on M1 Garands and M14/M1A are precision devices. You turn the knobs and the POI will change the right amount.

As to the psychology of it, when someone refers to 600 or 300 or 200 yards as "long range" remind him that per the NRA 200 and 300 yd are "short range", 500 and 600 yd are "mid range". 800, 900 and 1,000 yd are "long range".

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 12:27 PM   #50
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I would like to shoot at Perry again. Last Nat'l Match was at Perry in 1981. So, I'm OLD. & can't see front sight + target anymore.
I can shoot, earned my Distinguished Badge in one year, 3 - 10 point legs. Shot on a team that won the Big Team Match at Perry. Won Regionals. I can SHOOT, but I can't SEE anymore,,, I need the 4x scope on my M1A.
My vote is for optics, not just on the AR platform, but on ALL Service Rifles

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 01:52 PM   #51
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One of our shooters showed up at our 200 yard reduced course match today with a scoped AR, shooting it in a match for the first time after zeroing yesterday. He won with 788-38X. Dropped all the points in standing, but his last 10 shot string was 98-3. Just getting used to it.

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 02:03 PM   #52
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What types of scores did he shoot with irons?

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 03:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by CobraBob View Post
I would like to shoot at Perry again. Last Nat'l Match was at Perry in 1981. So, I'm OLD. & can't see front sight + target anymore.
I can shoot, earned my Distinguished Badge in one year, 3 - 10 point legs. Shot on a team that won the Big Team Match at Perry. Won Regionals. I can SHOOT, but I can't SEE anymore,,, I need the 4x scope on my M1A.
My vote is for optics, not just on the AR platform, but on ALL Service Rifles
Bob,

I hope you can make it again. If you can't use your M1A with a scope, don't discount a scoped AR.

Rick

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 03:32 PM   #54
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I'm not going to win camp Perry tomorrow or the next day for that matter. I think allowing scoped rifles is an unfair advantage. How will those that are on the cusp of obtaining all the points they need going to compete against someone shooting optics? I'd imagine everyone will be a high master in no time at all.

So now that scopes are allowed does that mean you can use a flat top upper? I

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 03:35 PM   #55
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Rules will be out in the next couple weeks. Lots of changes.

My fear, scopes will cause high scores like those observed with the 308 replacing 30-06 on the firing line. The result will be reduced rings on the targets and removing the 30-Cal M1 and M14 from competition all but in name.

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 03:41 PM   #56
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To answer your last question, yes... flat top uppers are/will be legal.

As far as advantages go....anyone shooting an AR-15 will be allowed to use optics so if one chooses not to, well... that's a self imposed disadvantage, much like those to who choose to compete with M1A's or M1 Garands.

We shall see how it all plays out, but I shot in a 600 any/any match with a scoped AR and while my scores were a tad better, it didn't turn me into a high master...or even a master for that matter.

All the other fundamentals that I still need to work on still come into play and I like the idea of it being a shooting contest and not a seeing contest.

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 04:39 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by 82nd ABN View Post
I'm not going to win camp Perry tomorrow or the next day for that matter. I think allowing scoped rifles is an unfair advantage. How will those that are on the cusp of obtaining all the points they need going to compete against someone shooting optics? I'd imagine everyone will be a high master in no time at all.

So now that scopes are allowed does that mean you can use a flat top upper? I
82nd, I respectfully disagree that the use of scopes will cause a significant shift in scores. The USAMU has reportedly performed testing which indicate that the use of optical sights by highly skilled shooters does give them an increase in scores but the increase is only a few points. For those lacking well developed skills, I suspect that the difference will be even smaller. If fundamentals are lacking, hardware will not fill in the gap. No optical sight in existence will enable a shooter to read the wind at 600 yds and dial in the correction if he doesn't already possess that skill. It also will not help him hold steady in offhand - in fact, a scope might make offhand more challenging if one can't hold hard already. In my opinion, where scopes really offer a significant advantage is in tactical shooting competition - you can see a wider field of view than one can see through iron sights. That really makes a big difference when it comes to rapid target acquisition. That's just not the case when shooting on a KD range. Just my two cents worth. Rick

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 05:02 PM   #58
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A few months ago, recently retired (?) AMU coach Emil Praslick stated that their shooters were seeing a gain of 3-5 points on their scores. His prediction was breaking national records, etc.

"We have been shooting the last few days with a Nightforce scope with 4.5x power. Our brand new shooter (SPC Cleland) shot a 497-27x zeroing the scope across the course (with sighters). First time with optics.

Today, one our guys shot a 792-41x zeroing one (first time with optics). With a little practice...game changer."


To echo another poster to that thread, "This will kill irons". But I enjoy even the most optimistic soul.

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 08:24 PM   #59
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Gentlemen, One thing we must keep in mind is that even if optical sights causes match scores to increase (which they likely will) leg points are only awarded in relationship to the performance of other shooters who compete within the same match. Optical sights (or any other hardware change for that matter) wouldn't make it any easier for a service rifle shooter to progress to a distinguished rifleman's badge any faster than other shooters who is allowed to use the same hardware. By the way, Roadkingtrax, Ben Cleland may be a new shooter but he is very highly skilled and has proven his competence with iron sights, as well. As I recall, Ben Cleland finished in 6th place in the President's 100 Match. Rick

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Old January 3rd, 2016, 08:44 PM   #60
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Rickgman -- Strongly agree that basics are most important, then equipment & ammo. & Yes, reading wind is extremely critical.
MANY years ago, at the 600 stage, I could hold off enough to shoot a 3:00 or 9:00 nine for a coach, any more favor & I would lose the bottom of the bull & elevation would suffer. BUT - BUT with a 4x scope I can hold just about anywhere the spotter tells me to go. AND, you don't have to get out of position to crank windage in/off. Can shoot a quicker 600 yd string, should have fewer wind changes in the shorter time.
Standing, a scope allows better trigger control (I shot indoor Int'l in Winter to keep in shape)-IF-IF-your basics are sharp.
Rapid Fire - don't have any idea if a scope would help or hurt? Never did it.

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