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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Having experimented with optics, I can tell you that shooting service rifle using an optic isn't as easy as it sounds. I found that it ...


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Old September 3rd, 2015, 12:57 PM   #31
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Having experimented with optics, I can tell you that shooting service rifle using an optic isn't as easy as it sounds. I found that it was more difficult to break the shot for the simple reason that I was seeing too much! Shooting from position, I found that there was no practical difference in group size. This is from the perspective of someone who is a distinguished rifleman and a high master level shooter. I do think that allowing collapsible stocks and low magnification optics will bring more shooters into the game.
However, I do think that going distinguished should be reserved for those using iron sights.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 01:03 PM   #32
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As I mentioned before, I do feel a bit conflicted about it for much the same reasons you list...but whatever happens, I'm not going to simply take my ball and bat and go home, I am going to adapt and keep shooting.
If what attracted me to Service Rifle effectively vanishes, well... there are other shooting sports. I have no interest at all in adapting to optics for anything. If it turns out that optics are required to be competitive (see what the leg cut in the 2016 or 2017 NTI is), I'll shoot Palma and MR. No huge loss. As I get older, I'm headed in that direction anyway (eyes).

Note that M1 and M14 shooters are going to be left out to dry on the whole "optic" thing entirely.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 01:18 PM   #33
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For me personally, I don't have a shot at the those sorts of cut scores anyway, so perhaps my feelings reflect the fact that I am not very competitive in the big grand scheme of things.

After re-reading my last post, my ball and bat comment wasn't meant as any sort of dig, I was just meaning that since I like to compete with a service rifle (M14 and AR15), I won't personally let this proposed change keep me from sticking with the service rifle class. I totally understand that others won't feel the same and may choose to redirect their shooting interests as a result.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 01:27 PM   #34
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After re-reading my last post, my ball and bat comment wasn't meant as any sort of dig, I was just meaning that since I like to compete with a service rifle (M14 and AR15), I won't personally let this proposed change keep me from sticking with the service rifle class. I totally understand that others won't feel the same and may choose to redirect their shooting interests as a result.
I didn't take it that way. Not everyone is attracted to a sport for all the same reasons. Since it's going to morph into a limited match rifle, more than it already is, I might as well go whole-hog with a space gun and be done with it.

As it stands, I'm against optics AND the proposed weight limit for optically-equipped rifles. If they're going to be "service rifles", they should be service rifles. Internal mods allowed. The weight limit smacks of the games matches (nothing wrong with the games matches, it's just a different sort of animal). Actually, I really haven't liked any rule change of the last few years, except the new-new target marking method.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 01:46 PM   #35
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If what attracted me to Service Rifle effectively vanishes, well... there are other shooting sports. I have no interest at all in adapting to optics for anything. If it turns out that optics are required to be competitive (see what the leg cut in the 2016 or 2017 NTI is), I'll shoot Palma and MR. No huge loss. As I get older, I'm headed in that direction anyway (eyes).

Note that M1 and M14 shooters are going to be left out to dry on the whole "optic" thing entirely.
+1, in full agreement with the sentiment and direction stated. As long as I can still see reasonably well, get my gear onto and off the field, and enjoy the recoil of my M1 Garand, M14, and 03 Springfield, then its traditional iron sights. Once that experience ceases to be a pleasure and I can't converse with like minded shooters, I'll probably go F Class. "Old high power shooters don't die, they go to F Class."

I'm all for attracting new shooters into high power. If optics bring more in, at least the rules committee can categorize their winners (and cut scores) separately. IMO, you are fielding two classes of rifles.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 03:05 PM   #36
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If optics bring more in, at least the rules committee can categorize their winners (and cut scores) separately. IMO, you are fielding two classes of rifles.
That is the sentiment of a lot of shooters.

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 12:07 PM   #37
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http://thecmp.org/2016-cmp-rifle-and...-rule-changes/

Seems to be getting closer and closer to being a done deal....

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 02:49 PM   #38
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While I am on the fence regarding optics, at least for things like distinguished matches nti pres 100 etc. what should really be done ( pistol rifle with or without optic no matter) is a rack of usgi issue rifles carbines and pistols comes out of a military armory. You march up and grab one then head to the range. I started shooting high power like 30+ years ago and have always been very turned off by the equipment race. I further was turned off when they went to starting from position instead of going from standing to prone or sit, and the starting with an empty gun etc. I still shoot a few matches here and there but the sport is not as attractive to me as it was in the old days.

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 03:22 PM   #39
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Has anyone heard anything from the NRA service rifle rules committee? Just wondering what, if anything, will happen with the 308 AR rules? Seems like it would make sense for both AR's to get the same treatment.

Personally I'd like to see the Service rifle competition split into two classes. Modern with their fancy new rules and classic 30 caliber with the old rules. Seems like it would keep everyone happy.

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 04:43 PM   #40
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Has anyone heard anything from the NRA service rifle rules committee? Just wondering what, if anything, will happen with the 308 AR rules? Seems like it would make sense for both AR's to get the same treatment.

Personally I'd like to see the Service rifle competition split into two classes. Modern with their fancy new rules and classic 30 caliber with the old rules. Seems like it would keep everyone happy.
Beeks, It is impossible to keep everyone happy. Everyone has an idea of what is best and no two people apparently share the same idea. When I was a teenager an older gentlemen told me about when the M1 became the service rifle and service rifle competitors called it a "bullet squirter". They complained that it diminished the skill needed to be a competent rifleman since he no longer had to manipulate the bolt quickly in rapid fire and, thus,had to break and reaquire position quickly. Before long, everyone forgot about the old 1903 rifle and accepted the M1 rifle. Scores improved and the skill required to operate a bolt action rifle no longer seemed to be a desirable skill. I think this will happen yet again with regards to optics. It will, of course, take some time for this transition to occur. Rick

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 07:23 PM   #41
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Beeks, great question and I'd like to know before next year's high power season. Here's my opinion; I haven't yet seen anything written by the NRA If/when new rules are issued by the CMP, then its logical for the NRA to review its high power rules. It will take awhile for all the kinks to be worked out. Depends upon the rules complexities introduced with optics and partly how consistent NRA wants to be with CMP.

Rick, its my understanding boards matches at CMP's National Matches do not allow use of a bolt gun. CMP deliberately removed that option and requires use of a semi auto. If you practice and find decent loads with a 1903 Springfield (or many vintage foreign military bolt rifles), the bolt rifle can be a tough competitor.

Somewhat a tangent to the general thread: At our games matches, we have on average bolt rifle scores just above M1 Garands. The club emphasis is on WWI and WWII rifles so everyone is motivated. For me, its a pleasure to see excellent marksmanship coupled with rapid bolt movement. Several times, our club shooters acknowledged those who do it well.

However, senior shooters recognize the need to renew rifleman concepts with younger shooters. We've been putting AR-15s on later relays. Several newer shooters are now regulars; we're slowly corrupting them with a .30 caliber match now and then.

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Old October 22nd, 2015, 07:47 PM   #42
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[QUOTE=arcticdog;1640701]

Rick, its my understanding boards matches at CMP's National Matches do not allow use of a bolt gun. CMP deliberately removed that option and requires use of a semi auto. If you practice and find decent loads with a 1903 Springfield (or many vintage foreign military bolt rifles), the bolt rifle can be a tough competitor.

QUOTE]

Articdog, Yep, the 1903 has not been allowed in EIC matches since 1940. However, when the M1 became the only service rifle allowed in the post war matches (beginning in 1953), there was much complaining by the older competitors. They felt that some of the skills that they had developed over years of diligent practice were no longer needed and the M1 gave newcomers more advantage than they felt was just. In short order folks just got back to the business of competing and didn't look back. I see a lot of similarities between this old situation and the current situation. I predict that it will all pass in a year or two. If I were king, service rifle competition would be limited to rifles that closely matched true service rifles except they would be semi-auto only and parts could be hand selected for accuracy. Sights were be the same as service rifles, the weight would be the same as actual service rifles, all cartridges would have to be capable of being fed from a USGI magazine, etc. Of course, I'm not king so things will be as there are. Rick

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Old October 29th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #43
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Given the scoring rings we use, there are virtually zero points available for purchase for the guys that have a reasonable shot at making the cut. You can either shoot something like 93+ offhand, clean the rapid targets on a fairly regularly basis, can make adjustments for the wind, and have solid zeros, or you can't. Having a scope just doesn't factor into it. Is a scope going to help a guy stay well inside the 9-ring when he's on his feet? Nope.

Sure it may take more time/expense to learn to shoot irons. But I wouldn't call a scope a clear advantage. I will say that they are sure to discover new and interesting ways of blowing a match.

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Old October 29th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #44
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As long as they separate the optics class, I don't care.

We need more people in the sport.

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Old October 29th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #45
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As long as they separate the optics class, I don't care.

We need more people in the sport.
The CMP doesn't intend to separate anything. Anything ARish will be legal up to and including a 20" barreled space gun.

The idea of a common platform that you conform to is out the window. Service Rifle as a discipline is dead so CMP can sell NightForce optics, as far as I can determine. Just like Service Pistol was completely altered right after Glock donated a bunch of money to them.

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