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Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes?

This is a discussion on Cmp/nra service rifles with scopes? within the Rifle Competition forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Originally Posted by missilegeek I saw the experimental optic service rifles AMU used during NRA Week. They were not ACOGs. Missilegeek, Please tell us more. ...


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Old September 2nd, 2015, 08:16 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by missilegeek View Post
I saw the experimental optic service rifles AMU used during NRA Week. They were not ACOGs.
Missilegeek, Please tell us more. Personally, I can't see an ACOG being a good choice for precision shooting. The reticle design just doesn't lend itself to that purpose. Rick

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 08:40 AM   #17
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I would like to hear about these experimental <4.5x target scopes as well.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 08:42 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
Missilegeek, Please tell us more. Personally, I can't see an ACOG being a good choice for precision shooting. The reticle design just doesn't lend itself to that purpose. Rick
An ACOG wouldn't be. Follow the discussion on National Match. Modify something like an NF NXS 1-4x with a donut reticle and you'll have something pretty close to a match rifle's sight picture.


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Old September 2nd, 2015, 08:42 AM   #19
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I would like to hear about these experimental <4.5x target scopes as well.
The scopes aren't experimental. The rifles + scopes were experimental.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 01:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by missilegeek View Post
This is a fundamental change and removes one of the fundamentals of marksmanship. It isn't even remotely comparable to the introduction of the AR15 into the sport.

It will double the price of entry. "Combat optics" won't be remotely competitive. It'll be target scopes. Reliable target optics are not cheap. Making it more expensive will not draw people into the sport. It'll kill junior programs.

For other reasons, it'll cause some people, like me, to exit the sport. I have zero interest in using an optic for anything. I'll take up Palma. Considering what they did to Service Pistol this year, I am not a fan of Mark Johnson.
You hit the nail on the head geek.

Talk about a unfair advantage. One guy using Irons and the guy next to him using a 4x scope the guy with the optic wins ever time.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 05:51 PM   #21
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I actually shot my first 600 F class match with an 18" AR and an ACOG with the fine line crosshair and my scores weren't terrible, I beat all of the other 1st timers and tied with a guy who had a bull barreled setup with a high powered scope. Someone who is a better shooter than me, using better ammunition, on a service rifle target (larger scoring rings vs F class I think 2MOA 10ring vs 1MOA) they could clean the target.

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by noob14s View Post
I actually shot my first 600 F class match with an 18" AR and an ACOG with the fine line crosshair and my scores weren't terrible, I beat all of the other 1st timers and tied with a guy who had a bull barreled setup with a high powered scope. Someone who is a better shooter than me, using better ammunition, on a service rifle target (larger scoring rings vs F class I think 2MOA 10ring vs 1MOA) they could clean the target.
noob14s have you ever shot high power before?

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 07:01 PM   #23
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noob14s have you ever shot high power before?
Yes why?

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 07:05 PM   #24
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just was curious

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 07:32 PM   #25
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You hit the nail on the head geek.

Talk about a unfair advantage. One guy using Irons and the guy next to him using a 4x scope the guy with the optic wins ever time.
Ben, I respectfully disagree. Firstly, a better shooter will frequently outscore a less talented shooter who has an equipment advantage. Equipment limits the ability of a good shooter to score but will not give points to those who can't shoot well in the first place. Secondly, a good set of match grade iron sights are superior to a poorly designed optical sight or one lacking in quality. This is particularly evident when shooting optical sights which are not optimized for high precision or which have a small exit pupil. A scope with a small exit pupil is very problematic when shooting multiple positions like in service rifle competition. By the way, try shooting offhand with a 4X scope. It is downright hard to get over the perception of excessive movement. Rick

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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:34 PM   #26
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I am relatively new to high power competitions... been competing for 3 seasons and I have mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, I feel a sort of pride that I can put most of my shots into the 9 ring or better at 600 yards using iron sights, but I am also 46 years old and my eyes are only getting worse so I am kind of looking forward to being able to see both the reticle and target at the same time.

I know that the cost of playing this game will now be higher and that might keep a few new shooters away, but with the rising popularity of 3 gun sports and all the expense that goes along with that, I have a hard time believing that cost is what's causing high power to wane in popularity. If you follow the national match forums, it has become clear that High Power is losing competitors annually (only 250 or so at Camp Perry vs over 1000 15 years ago). While I am not sure what it is that's causing it, if allowing a 4x scope to be used brings some of the older shooters back into the sport, as well as some of the younger tactitool sorts, I guess I am for that. What's the point of competing when there is no one to compete with.

Let's be real for a moment, 16 lbs heavy barreled AR15's with tuned triggers, free float tubes and 1/4 minute pinned sights aren't really service rifles either so why not allow scopes and adjustable butt stocks if it helps others to join the competition. It's a shooting contest, not a seeing contest. Trigger control, breathing, NPA, building a correct position, etc... will still be part of this "new" game so I really don't see how it hurts.

Anyway, now that I talked it out with myself...I guess I am okay with the proposed changes. Yes, I will have to dump my A2 upper in favor of a flat top... then buy a decent scope to set atop it... and then learn to work it into my practice regimen, but so long as I keep getting to show up and compete with folks who are fielding similar rigs, I am ok with the extra expense because I thoroughly enjoy shooting and hanging out with the fine people who choose to take the field and compete against me...

Todd Florman
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 11:59 AM   #27
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Thank you, Todd, for presenting a view that I was trying to give. There are fewer "new" competitors in this field. Like you, I have three years into the sport. Other newer competitors have the same view. Perhaps since we haven't been doing this for 20 years we don't see the issue? Regardless, all sports evolve and this is what it is moving towards.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 12:15 PM   #28
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Todd and Smoothy, There is a lot of emotion involved in target sports. Most folks have a fair bit of money invested in their equipment and don't want to "start over again". That is a totally understandable perspective. However, over time there has been many changes to service rifle competition. When I was a kid, I often heard an old timer talk about the days when 1903's were the service rifle and how there was resistance to shooter going to the M1 "bullet squirter". When that transition was complete, one could no longer even use the 1903 in competition. 1903's were relegated to the closet. Times change and so does the equipment. Service rifles evolve and, thus, the equipment rules evolve. Not everyone is happy with the changes but they are inevitable in this kind of sport. I really don't think that the use of optical sights will have the negative affect that some predict. Young shooters don't have to use optical sights if they don't want and they might opt to use iron sights to begin with. If they want to change to optical sights at a later date, that can be done. There is little doubt that optical sights of sufficient quality to be useful in precision shooting are expensive but so is so many other items in this sport - spotting scopes and stands, shooting jackets, range carts, rifles, travel expenses and let's not forget ammo. I think that many young folks might embrace optical sights since that's what they see the military using today. We shall see how this unfolds. Rick

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 12:30 PM   #29
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If you follow the national match forums, it has become clear that High Power is losing competitors annually (only 250 or so at Camp Perry vs over 1000 15 years ago).
That's NRA week, not Trophy week, and has as much to do with scheduling (and limited vacation time) as anything else (awards too). Leg matches aren't broken. They don't need "fixing". Trophy week is relatively packed.

Quote:
Let's be real for a moment, 16 lbs heavy barreled AR15's with tuned triggers, free float tubes and 1/4 minute pinned sights aren't really service rifles either so why not allow scopes and adjustable butt stocks if it helps others to join the competition. It's a shooting contest, not a seeing contest. Trigger control, breathing, NPA, building a correct position, etc... will still be part of this "new" game so I really don't see how it hurts.
"Sight alignment" won't be.

You can already shoot an optically-sighted fully-adjustable match rifle in NRA competition if you want the gun to fit you. For me, I liked the fact that pre-2016, we (service rifle competitors) all have effectively the same equipment and we all have to adapt to the gun, not adapt it to us. Otherwise, I'd shoot Match Rifle. After 2016, I probably will and go to Perry a week later.

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Old September 3rd, 2015, 12:54 PM   #30
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That's NRA week, not Trophy week, and has as much to do with scheduling (and limited vacation time) as anything else (awards too). Leg matches aren't broken. They don't need "fixing". Trophy week is relatively packed.



"Sight alignment" won't be.

You can already shoot an optically-sighted fully-adjustable match rifle in NRA competition if you want the gun to fit you. For me, I liked the fact that pre-2016, we (service rifle competitors) all have effectively the same equipment and we all have to adapt to the gun, not adapt it to us. Otherwise, I'd shoot Match Rifle. After 2016, I probably will and go to Perry a week later.
I can certainly see your point of view and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but the definition of a service rifle has changed over the years and it appears that it may do so once again. We shall see how that plays out. As I mentioned before, I do feel a bit conflicted about it for much the same reasons you list...but whatever happens, I'm not going to simply take my ball and bat and go home, I am going to adapt and keep shooting.

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