M14 Forum

tostado22

So after reading around and finally finding an event that I can make it to Ive decided to go to an appleseed shoot for my first shooting event. I've been shooting for several years, mostly for fun but still learning properly, but Ive never been to an event.

The appleseed site has been pretty helpful but I want to hear from people here. Do I need to join the RWVA or just register for an event? Also, I know its an open event as far as equipment, but is match ammo or anything like that necessary? I dont have reloading equipment yet and dont really want to spend the money on 500 rounds of match ammo.

I was going to just get some Winchester 7.62 for my standard but didnt know if that would be good enough for the shoot. I have a LRB build in progress but it may be a while before its done. Right now I just have my SAI Standard with a few tweaks done here and there and it shoots great.

Any other tips for a first event? Thank you

lbsnake925

tostado22,

My advice regarding appleseed:
1. Appleseed is the best marksmanship training for the money hands down. Generally the volunteer instructors are passionate and can shoot. You will connect with one or two on the range that will take an interest in your progress. The history and encouraged political activism is actually the most important element of Appleseed. The marksmanship training is not "sporting" oriented, but meant to teach Americans to shoot in defense of Liberty.
2.Yes, you can shoot without being a member. Right now there is deal where if you buy a 1 year RVWA membership, the shoot boss will validate you member card and you can shoot Appleseed free until you shoot a "Rifleman" score.
3. MOST IMPORTANT. ATTENTION. Unless you are highly trained and very confident shooting HP, DO NOT take your M1A to the range your first time. I had 13 years of Army basic marksmanship training and experience and I was unconsciously incompetent. My advice is to grab a Ruger 10-22, build a Liberty Training Rifle (LTR) with GI M1 sling. You can even borrow one if you contact the shoot boss before the event. SHOOT 22 until you master the AQT shooting 220 to 230 consistently. Until you can do this you will be wasting money shooting HP. It took me three months shooting LTR 3 times a week at an indoor range to master the 6 steps to firing the shot and steady hold factors in all positions, standing, sitting, and prone unsupported. If you can't shoot .22 caliber 1 inch groups at 25 yards in all positions, you will be wasting you ammo if you go HP. A Rifleman is careful, not careless. Every shot counts, every shot is a hit on target. This is why you shoot 22 until you master the basics, it will cost you far less and the basics will transfer directly to HP.
4. After you master the LTR you turn to HP M1A. Caution. THIS IS ADDICTING. The adrenaline pump from putting .30 caliber bullets through the same hole at 25 yards using real fighting techniques, no bench allowed, is very rewarding. My experience is that the basics make all the difference. The M1A is heavier but endurance will come with training. Purchase the best least expensive surplus ball ammo that you can afford and shoot at 25 yard until you can produce the same results as shooting the LTR. The real difference will by manning up on your sweetheart and not letting your battle rifle wear the pants in your relationship as you learn to shoot accurate rapid fire. I shot 1500 rounds of 22, I am about at 1000 .308 and I am getting the consistent AQT score of 210 to 220. I will test my HP skills at the Oct 2011 Appleseed. You may use less ammo and require less range time. My shooting buddy, shoots less and gets nearly the same scores. He has natural ability that I don't have. Training results will vary.
5. Buy Freds guide $16 and some targets from Fred http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp This is the best money I have spent learning to shoot.

My advice: Learn to walk and run with the LTR .22 before you enter the Olympics shooting the M1A to the Rifleman standard.

BOTTOM LINE: GET into Appleseed Project and get your friends there too. We need a country of Riflemen now to fight the "soft" crisis we currently face in our country. Every bullet expended Appleseeding is a shot for Independence and Liberty.

"Liberatem et Libertatas Semper" lb

SGTPinder

LBsnake said it all. 10/22 a nice brick or 2 of .22, a bunch of 22 mags, the HotLips ones I would recomend, I find them easier to eject, and tech sights, but thats covered in the Liberty Training Rifle, I think. Then bring your friends, family, AND tell them this: Military Shoots free, Women shoot free, Kids shoot free.. You may pay a range fee, but it saves big money.

Also, make sure you pack an open mind, my buddy didnt and thought it was like every Army PMI he had, and let early- DONT BE THAT GUY! We had lots of fun!

tostado22

Thank you very much for the post. I was thinking of doing that. I have a couple .22s right now. Ill have to do some practicing but Im sure the rifles are capable of those groups.

Looks like Ill be buying a few bricks of .22 when I get home haha. Out of curiosity, what course of fire do they use for the qualifier? I would like to try one at home just to get a benchmark to see where I stand.

lbsnake925

Good point. SGTPinder.

Attitude is everything. "Closemindendness" is Rifleman attribute, it is not. - Yoda

triggernick

This is all great advice!! I highly recomend using a .22 while you are learing/mastering the basics. saves BIG $$$. Once you have the positions/steps/timing all figured out, and you are comfortable, then you can break out the centerfires and get at it! LBSnake is dead on.

I have known people who start and end with centerfire, and while they may pick up the same skills, it costs them way more in ammo.

I personally used a 10/22 with tech sights for the entire first day (most of the instruction), and a couple AQTs into the 2nd day to make sure I still had everything down before I switched over to my M1A.

The COF is the following:
Stage 1: 10 shots (one mag) from standing position into a single target representing a 4 MOA target @ 100 yards (2 minutes)

Stage 2: 10 shots (one mag with 2, one with 8) Standing to sitting transition into 2 targets (both getting 5 shots each) into a target representing a 4 MOA target (2 targets) @ 200 yards (55 seconds)

Stage 3: 10 shots (one mag with 2, one with 8) Standing to prone transition into 3 targets (3 shots in 1st, 3 in second, 4 in the 3rd target) into 3 targets representing a 4 MOA target @ 300yards (65 seconds)

Stage 4: 10 shots (one mag) prone into 4 targets (2 shots in the 1st, 2 in the second, 3 in the third and 4th targets) representing a 4 MOA target @ 400 yards (5 minutes)

lbsnake925

1. You don't need fancy AQT to judge your proficiency. Go to your computer. Using whatever application you know create 1" black or gray (better training) squares, put one in center, one in each corner. Print.
2. Hang the target at 25 yards or 82 feet. Sling up if you can, get in prone position unsupported. Fire 2, reload fire 3. If your rifle is bolt or tube fed, just fire 5. You will want to get a mag fed Ruger 10-22 ASAP if you don't have one. You should put all bullets in the 1" square which equals 4 MOA at 100 Yards. .

If you are grouping 1" but not in the black, adjust your sights until you can.

I found sitting to the be the most challenging position-AS will teach several techniques. My instructor discouraged cross legged and promoted indian style. I could not shoot indian style, especially with M1A. I tried cross legged and went 1" at 25 yards with LTR and M1A. My Appleseed shooting buddy struggled with indian style as well. I am 6' and lanky, he is 5'6" or so and stocky. He tried cross legged and rocks the square as well. If you could shoot standing on your head and hit 1" at 25 yards, you are there.

I use cross legged described here http://www.odcmp.org/0307/default.as...SAMU_CASITTING

Demonstrated by a ocabj in California

and


A person had better have paid up life insurance if they challenged ocabj to a gun fight. One can tell by ocabj's range technique he is a deadly serious shooter. If someone snaps in on you like ocabj does, take cover and pray for night fall, you may have a chance to escape.

You will be ready for Appleseed and shoot Rifleman your first time.



Good luck.

calfret

Wel said! ABSOLUTELY NO MATCH AMMO! Waste of money. Save that for when you are good enough to use it to its full extent. You may want to bring a centerfire rifle with you, and here's why.

As said before, stay with the 10/22 until you are able to shoot to standards. Some folks (this is fairly rare) will shoot to standards fairly quickly. This depends on your attitude (do what the instructors say- they are teaching what works), as well as breaking bad habits you have. Women who have never shot tend to do best quicker because they do not have the egos to beat down and they do not have the bad habits to break.

This being said, if you shoot to standards and there is a known distance range at your AS you can move up there for practical application. What is taught at 25m works at 500 yards.

As for dumping so many rounds downrange to increase skill, that is not necessary. Dry firing with a SAFE rifle in a SAFE direction will help you to hone your skills and determine any mistakes you are making. If you are not dry firing AND not shooting to standards then you would be wrong to go and put rounds downrange. If you are of the mind to do that then PM me for my address and you can just send that ammo to me in the mail. You will have done the same thing- thrown ammo (which amounts to $$$) away.

washington

Can't beat RWVA for rifle marksmanship training. I try to get 2-3 new riflemen into the family every year. Great stories about Lexington and Concord. Take your kids.

feets

I guess iron sights are the only way to go?

I have an excellent shooting Marlin 88 in 22lr but it does not have a sling swivel or magazine. It's fed from a tube in the stock. With it's irons I can easily hold under 2" at 50 yards.

The other 22 I have access to is a 10/22 I built 15 years ago. It is scoped without iron sights. That thing loves Super X ammo and will shoot the staples out of the target at 50 yards.

To transition to centerfire I'd prefer my M1 carbine. It's a solid shooter to 100 yards. I've never had it farther than that.

I was an accomplished shooter 10 years ago, competing in long range tactical matches with my 300 WM. That means I have all kinds of bad habits to break.

geeck

Many people think a scope will help but at 25yds but most folks end up "fussing" their shots...

Most of the time they try to avoid running tubular magazine rifles on the line if they can help it. (mostly the muzzle end fed ones though)

Remember 1/4 inch = 1 MOA at 25yds

calfret

The tube fed will work but it changes the line commands slightly, no matter which side the tube is on.

Iron sights are NOT the only way to go. Many shooters use optics of some sort. If you can see the target then the optics are unneccesary as irons will do the exact same thing, perhaps better. You don't want your rifle to become useless just because yer scope got whacked now do ya? I am cross eyed dominant and my shooting eye has crappy vision, so I used a scope. This was on my M-14SA, so no big loss as the mount allows iron sight usage as well.

Bring both your tube fed and your 10/22. You never know when you will have a rifle issue. Try to stick with your 10/22 as it will be easier on you than the tube fed.

davecampperry

forget everything you have ever been taught, leave your 'attitude' at the door, remember that you are paying us to tell you what we know, not to hear other 'students' tell you what they think they know, or for you to tell us what you believe to be true. We've been teaching this program for several years, and have not seen any need to change it significantly. Immediately after you return home, get some friends together, and teach them what you learned. This will help 'set' the knowledge in your mind, help you understand what being an instuctor is really like, and get you on the road to becoming an AS instructor.

davecampperry

We've been around for years, and we know we have been 'infiltrated' by the BATF, and probably Sarah Brady and her bunch, and we are still here. There is no 'mystery' to what we teach, we are not 'military' oriented, we are in no way a 'secret society', you will not be asked to do anything you don't want to do, nor asked to participate in some 'initiation' or hazing, nor will you, your wife, or children be subjected to unpleasantry of any sort. Positions are demonstrated, but not required of you. We have people who cannot get into certain positions, and they do well. We are basically a group intent on having a good time, teaching what actually happened on April 19, 1775, and doing our best to return the US to a 'nation of Riflemen'.

tostado22

It seems like a great organization and pretty straight forward on what it's all about. Maybe the idiots in the BATF and Bradys will learn something