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This is a discussion on Winchester (Olin Mathieson) Parts within the Reference forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; The T44E4 and the M14 are synonymous, early on. M14 was the designator when the T44E4 was adapted in '57. On page 181 of Stevens' ...


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Old June 17th, 2015, 12:43 PM   #46
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The T44E4 and the M14 are synonymous, early on. M14 was the designator when the T44E4 was adapted in '57.

On page 181 of Stevens' book, it clearly depicts the "small base" suppressor -as Different stated, part # 7267088.

Also in Stevens' book, there are Springfield rifles dated '60-'61 but with the later, large square base suppressor. Interesting.

Small base suppressor is depicted on the cover or US RIFLE M14 (R Blake Stevens)


Interestingly, Stevens' book also shows a H&R .22 Simulator M14 with the small base suppressor -dated 12-59.


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Old June 17th, 2015, 01:33 PM   #47
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I have been doing a little investigating myself and did find some pictures of this small base flash hider.
While reading through,"The Last Steel Warrior", I found on page 273 and I quote,"Both the cast and stepped-type of flash suppressors were deemed obsolete and unacceptable".

The stepped flash suppressor referred to is not the one with the step behind the front sight but inside of the suppressor near the muzzle.

My question is, if these suppressors were indeed deemed obsolete and unacceptable, when would they have been replaced and their use discontinued?

Based on this I doubt if these types of suppressors would have been found on later M14s.

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Old June 17th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #48
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As I stated, pictures of Springfield rifles from '60-'61-'62 show rifles with the "large square base" suppressor. So, it would seem fair to say, that at least by '60 Springfield made the change.

Then, by '64 (or sooner?) we see suppressor's coming out of cans with the more ubiquitous stepped base. Essentially, the large square base with the back end milled down.

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Old June 17th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renisin View Post
While this type (small Base) flash suppressor is found on early type T44E4 rifles, it is doubtful that these same flash hiders would have been found on later M14 rifles. In fact I don't think I have ever seen one on a real M14.


Ren
Incorrect, the T44E4 flash suppressors were used to build tens of thousands of M14 rifles.

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Old June 17th, 2015, 02:56 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renisin View Post
My question is, if these suppressors were indeed deemed obsolete and unacceptable, when would they have been replaced and their use discontinued?

Based on this I doubt if these types of suppressors would have been found on later M14s.
From M14 Rifle History and Development Fifth Edition:

"The M12 BFA will not cycle the bolt if installed on a rifle with a National Match dimension flash suppressor. Additionally, the M12 BFA tube will not fit all the way into a T44E4 or early M14 flash suppressor. The early M14 flash suppressor, part number 7267088, did not have an inside diameter large enough at the rear end to allow the M12 BFA tube to be fully inserted. Springfield Armory drew up a new flash suppressor design, part number 7791053, in September 1960. The inside diameter shoulder at the rear of the suppressor was done away with to allow use of the M12 BFA with the flash suppressor."

and

"July 01, 1960 to December 31, 1960 — Aberdeen Proving Ground (MD) successfully develops and tests the XM12 blank firing attachment and a breech shield for the M14."

and

"September 21, 1961 — The M12 blank firing attachment, M3 breech shield and M82 blank cartridge were officially classified as Standard A."

The flash suppressor had to be redesigned (September 1960) so that the Blank Firing Attachment could be successfully tested (late 1960). My book is free, just need to ask for it.

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Old June 18th, 2015, 01:29 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Different View Post
Incorrect, the T44E4 flash suppressors were used to build tens of thousands of M14 rifles.
Lee, while tens of thousands sounds like a lot, there were approx. 1.4 million M14s built. I know you know but many here do not so I am including this info for them.


It just stands to reason that once a better flash hider was made available it would have replaced the substandard one.

The reason I bring this up is that I am getting close to building an XM21 and want to make sure that I get it correct, right down to the correct flash suppressor.


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Old June 18th, 2015, 03:32 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renisin View Post
Lee, while tens of thousands sounds like a lot, there were approx. 1.4 million M14s built. I know you know but many here do not so I am including this info for them.


It just stands to reason that once a better flash hider was made available it would have replaced the substandard one.
Like the wood hand guard, T44E4 stock, non-hinged butt plate, slotted hand guard, early gas cylinder, and non-plated firing pin, yes, parts did get replaced as newer design items were adopted and produced.

If a M12 BFA will fit all the way into a flash suppressor, then it's a M14 (September 1960 design) part. If the BFA does not insert all the way, it's a T44E4 flash suppressor. In other words, the shape of the sight base did not determine if the Army thought it was a M14 part or a T44E4 part.

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Last edited by Different; June 18th, 2015 at 03:45 AM.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 07:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renisin View Post

The reason I bring this up is that I am getting close to building an XM21 and want to make sure that I get it correct, right down to the correct flash suppressor.


Ren

The XM21 could have had either the "large square base" or the stepped (radius cut) suppressor (like the SA & Win you showed).

An early, say '69-'70 or so, would have been likely built with the large, square base. Latter XM's, more likely the stepped. This is my thoughts based on pictorial research.

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Old June 21st, 2015, 01:57 AM   #54
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I will provide a clear pic of a Winchester plug from the same pack, next to a known H & R plug. There are a couple very subtle differences that somebody that wasn't looking for would miss.
Here is the pic, H & R on the left, Olin Matheison on the right.
The Winny has noticeably larger knurled area, and the plain area is smaller on both above and below of the knurled area. On the H & R the knurling seems sharper and slightly more pointed up. On the H & R on the very top part where you put the wrench to tighten it, had noticeably rougher machining on more sides than the Winny. The Winny in this pack had a charcoal like preservative and the H & R had the white salty looking powder. The color is slightly different also, the H & R seemed more black. As I said before,I can't say if these traits apply to all plugs manufactured by all contractors for each brand, but these are my observations for these particular ones.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 05:18 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Different View Post
Like the wood hand guard, T44E4 stock, non-hinged butt plate, slotted hand guard, early gas cylinder, and non-plated firing pin, yes, parts did get replaced as newer design items were adopted and produced.
But , they didn't say OK , we have this new designed and produced part so everybody send in your M14 rifle so we can replace the old part with the new one.
You can look at Springfield Armory's museum website to see the date they acquired a rifle and see older parts(handguards,flash suppressors,etc) still on M14s long after newer designed and produced parts were adopted.

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Old June 21st, 2015, 07:38 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnw50cal View Post
But , they didn't say OK , we have this new designed and produced part so everybody send in your M14 rifle so we can replace the old part with the new one.
You can look at Springfield Armory's museum website to see the date they acquired a rifle and see older parts(handguards,flash suppressors,etc) still on M14s long after newer designed and produced parts were adopted.
On July 21, 2005, I visited Watervliet Arsenal Museum and held in my hands Springfield Armory M14 serial number 9635 still wearing an experimental / prototype M14 flash suppressor. Agreed, not every rifle received updated parts.

M14 rifles produced from late 1959 into the fall of 1960 were built with wood hand guard assemblies (P/N 7267021 FSN 1005-587-8382) and T44E4 butt plates. At least some of these rifles were sent to Raritan Arsenal in 1961 to get parts swapped out. These part changes were published as Modification Work Orders issued by Army Ordnance Command. Adding the sling swivel to M2 bipods was another MWO. M14 rifles issued with the M2 bipod (M14 Modified as used by CAP Marines in RVN) had the M2 bipod "work" done at the depot level.

As M14 rifles were rebuilt at the depot level, T44E4 stocks, non-chromed firing pins and wood and slotted hand guards were replaced with M14 stocks, chromed pins and solid fiberglass hand guards.

References: a) U. S. Army Weapons Command, Headquarters. DMWR 9-1005-223 U. S. Army Weapons Command Depot Maintenance Work Requirements for Overhaul of the Rifle, 7.62MM, M14 and Bipod, Rifle, M2. Rock Island, IL: October 1971 b) Howe, Walter J. and E. H. Harrison. “The M14 Rifle.” American Rifleman October 1961: 27 c) Springfield Armory National Historic Site Museum Notes Catalog Number: SPAR 4077 11JAN60 - 30JUN60.

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Old June 21st, 2015, 08:22 AM   #57
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It only stands to reason that as weapons were sent to the armors for repair those rifles would be fitted with replacement parts.

Eventually replacing old with more updated and upgraded parts.

Did this happen 100 percent of the time and to all weapons...no!

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Old June 21st, 2015, 08:28 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaissonSeven View Post
The XM21 could have had either the "large square base" or the stepped (radius cut) suppressor (like the SA & Win you showed).

An early, say '69-'70 or so, would have been likely built with the large, square base. Latter XM's, more likely the stepped. This is my thoughts based on pictorial research.
Thanks, in total agreement. I have and am going with a large square base, it being a NM reamed suppressor.

Ren

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Old June 21st, 2015, 02:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renisin View Post
Thanks, in total agreement. I have and am going with a large square base, it being a NM reamed suppressor.

Ren
Nice, excellent choice.

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Old July 1st, 2015, 04:46 PM   #60
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This thread need more Winny parts!

I thought I'd share some more Winchester parts not shown yet.
This is a picture of 4 packs of connector locking pins NIW from my collection.
Notice the one on the top left, it is dated 12/60 and the packaging is lighter and from a different company than the other three dated 5/61. It also has one more line of part number data the other three don't.
I also thought it was strange that the pack of connector lock pins I gave one to USSF06 out of was a yellowish clear cellophane plastic bag compared to the regular VCI paper bags shown here. The cellophane bag was still strong and pliable upon opening. I've only ever seen SA use both also, I''m not sure about the other manufacturers.
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