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Marine Corps NM M14s - Enjoy!

This is a discussion on Marine Corps NM M14s - Enjoy! within the Pictures forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I'll see if I can't strip one down so you all can take a peek. Glad you all enjoyed them. I'll be posting more pictures ...


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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:31 PM   #16
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I'll see if I can't strip one down so you all can take a peek. Glad you all enjoyed them. I'll be posting more pictures and video eventually. Again, any specific questions just let me know!

Phil, I didn't see a new PM pop up. Repeat fire mission.

S/F

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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #17
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Fantastic! Thanks for sharing........ I have 2 double lug guns built like the Marine guns...... 1 in a heavy wood and the other in a McMillian fiberglass.....
Now, if I could just find one of those super cool sweatshirts like the one the team shooters are wearing.....I remember those sweatshirts a Camp Perry...... It was always easy to spot the Marine shooters there.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:53 PM   #18
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Well, unfortunately the only way to get one of those is to serve on THE Marine Team! Or if a shooter commits sacrilege and sells his on EBay! We controlled that issued item carefully. The long sleeves are super thick, made by Cambridge I want to say. We also have short sleeve ones which are great for shooting standing and reducing bulk.

S/F

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Old January 27th, 2015, 12:54 PM   #19
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GS5414 - What was the round count on the barrels before they were considered for replacing?
Were there specific barrels for specific Marines?
What was the date of the group photo? I was in from 88-92, and I believe that I saw some members training on the range at Lejeune during one of our quals. Hot, sunny and very muggy day, miserable for shooting...

Thanks for sharing...

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Old January 27th, 2015, 03:27 PM   #20
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I have one of those. 2112 built, and Navy Armorer fixed.

Did they lay their trigger side leg across the back of their left leg traditionally? (assume right handed shooter)


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Old January 27th, 2015, 03:45 PM   #21
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what's the story on the named one, Thumper?

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Old January 27th, 2015, 03:58 PM   #22
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SMAW - Generally 4000 rounds is the point where you will start to see random flyers pop up and barrels were replaced around that point. Granted, some used to go out well before due to excessive cleaning procedures from back then. Before they could afford greater numbers of the Krieger heavy barrel guns, those double lug guns would go to the Gold Team. The Scarlet Team would normally get rear lugged guns, occasionally a non lugged gun. Green Team would be given non lugged, minimally match conditioned guns if they worked hard enough and earned the right to actually shoot now and again. Ammunition worked the same way. Want to shoot the G4 load and post the score? Shoot harder with M852/FGMM, cut more grass and speed up your pit service. The date of the photo I have to look up, but I can probably find it.

Roadking - That has happened before. Some 2112s will do better work on specific guns than others.

Chestnut - PM sent. Not sure I should say that story in public. If I do, no names will be mentioned!!

S/F

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Old January 27th, 2015, 04:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GS5414 View Post
Yep, MSgt Watson is retiring this year. There's a few famous names in there. Billy Ray Williamson, future OIC of THE Marine Corps Rifle Team. Jake DeBerry, future coach of th team. Tom Skeer, Dave Adkins, Jeff Schafer, and Gunny Nelson Ocasio, multiple time long range service champ. Also the late Kevin Kistler, a man that was so damn good with the Big Gun that if he shot under an 8X clean during the 300RF, his gun was considered broken and went back to the gun truck. He was a big advocate of the open leg prone and a squared up position and spinal column for those who couldn't shoot with the lateral torque sometimes associated with cross legged.

Lots of history here, gents.

S/F

Did they lay their trigger side leg across the back of their left leg traditionally? (assume right handed shooter)

So much of the 30 cal knowledge is slipping away, as the AR has all but replaced the bigger calibers at even the local levels.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 04:31 PM   #24
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I'm surprised they were stored barrel down, resting on the flashiders. Very cool pics, thank you.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 04:42 PM   #25
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Nice pics, thx. I'd like to see any other detail pics of these rifles that you can get.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 04:44 PM   #26
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No, absolutely not. I'm not quite sure where that came from to be honest. More than likely somebody did that because it removes most pressure from the leg, and perhaps stretches just inside the hip flexor/groin area a tad bit. Perhaps someone thought that if their foot was there, it wouldn't move.

In any case, cock-legged prone was the most common. This was done ( in the context of shooting .30 cal weapons ) because as you draw your leg up, your entire body's center of gravity shifts forwards. This has the effect of loading more pressure into the stock from behind - hence the simple phrase 'recoil control'. It just provides a slightly more rigid abutment for the rifle to recoil against. The problem is that some shooters can't do this without their spinal column being at a severe angle away from the gun. Excessive length of pull or under average height is the largest contributing factor here. Second is placement of the forward hand. One can shove their hand into the sling swivel to give it nowhere to slip to, but that requires stretching the sling arm out. This is turn blades one shoulders, and voila - you now have a shooter that is no longer 'behind the gun'. One's recoil pattern may change and cause greater travel in the direction of least resistance. For a right handed shooter with an excessively bladed position this would mean a recoil pattern up and to the right at any various clock direction. Enough of this and too little friction between the shooting mat and one's elbows, and the elbows will slip. The position will 'break down' and the shooter attempts to drag his body back to where it started. Wrong move - different muscle tension will add resistance in a certain direction, and if not consistent, can cause zero shifts due to changed jump angle of the rifle. Incorrect position with an M14 becomes a cascading effect, and the rifle will slap you for such indiscretion. The NM M16 will let you get away with it because there isn't nearly as much recoil to make one's elbows or stock placement slip.

So, Kevin Kistler adopted open leg prone. He ended up teaching this to several other shooters who couldn't hold down the 300RF in cock legged prone. By pulling his forward hand back from the sling swivel he was able to square his shoulders and his spine. His recoil pattern became straight up and down, the rifle holding its vertical position from pure sling support. His forward hand required Hawkeye spray adhesive because if his hand wasn't at the sling swivel, there was potential for movement. The right elbow was the same case - his center of gravity was further back, so firing side elbow pressure was less, and needed Hawkeye to prevent movement. His upper back relaxing into the stock was the only pressures loaded into the gun - not controlled [ forward ] imbalance like the cocked leg position.

As such, for his body structure, he became a stupid amazing 300RF shooter with the Big Gun. The only issue is that other than catchphrases like 'recoil control' and 'behind the gun', very few people actually were able to look at a human body, pick up a book on anatomy and articulate how elements like friction, balance, weight, etc. can be leveraged to create recoil control and consistency.

This is also why so many M14 shooters going to the M16 shot incredible scores. Fundamentally, the M14 demands perfection for great scores. When you take someone with the kinesthetic awareness and consistency a Big Gun shooter has and give them a rifle with less recoil... They will dominate.

As for me, I will most likely return to using the cock legged, but I have a very in-line position for the time being. Before extensive snap in commences, I'll be doing pure position work to gain the 'feel' of each element and body part. I may end up going back to open leg, who knows?

ETA - Sorry for the rant. You heard the man - lots of knowledge has been lost. Time to bring that knowledge back to life.

S/F

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Old January 27th, 2015, 04:45 PM   #27
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Kynoch - They aren't resting on the flash suppressors, but rather hanging from the rear sling swivel. This is to keep any solvents draining away from the gas cylinder and away from the bedding.

Wb4ky - Any specific requests?

S/F

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Old January 27th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #28
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Great information!! Thanks so much for your knowledge and willingness to share! Great pictures too!

I'm sure you know Gysgt Highmaster Has Been on here. Maybe he'll chime in!

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Old January 27th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #29
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Thanks for posting the pics and the commentary on the prone position. As a noob to high power (M1A) I need all the help I can get.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 05:19 PM   #30
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Who wouldn't love to have one of these stocks? WOW...great thread.

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