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"Correct" ART II Scope?

This is a discussion on "Correct" ART II Scope? within the Optics forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Hello, I bought a few years ago a ART II scope and matching case. I was under the impression that these where used late in ...


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Old May 27th, 2012, 02:24 AM   #1
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"Correct" ART II Scope?

Hello,

I bought a few years ago a ART II scope and matching case.
I was under the impression that these where used late in the Vietnam war.
Since I became a member of the great forum already two members pointed out to me that this is not the case and it came in service begin 80ís.

Bit disappointed, but still a great scope.
Two question I hope you can help me with;

Is it a Military ART II Scope?
Shall I try to get an original mount, see want to buy, or shall I try to sell it?

I really only collect Vietnam stuff so will start looking for a AR TEL Redfield which will not be easy and cheap I am afraid.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 05:33 AM   #2
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Looks like a great scope. Unfortunately it has a camming mechanism and won't function without the proper Leatherwood mount. Iron Sight, Inc. of Tulsa, OK would be the logical source unless someone on the forum has a loose one he's willing to part with. Good luck with it!

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Old May 27th, 2012, 06:00 AM   #3
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The Leatherwood ART II actually came out in 1974.However it was not used in Nam.
Do NOT let anyone convince you that the Leatherwood ART I was used by the military,,the military NEVER adopted them.
The correct scope for Nam vintage M21 is the Redfield AR-TEL 3X9.
I'm in the same boat as you.I bought an ART II many years ago thinking it was GTG Nam era.Sooo,,I'm also looking for a correct Redfield.
ETA,,,as long as yours does not have "MPC" anywhere on it,then yes it's GI. Leatherwood made a civy version called "military,police,civilian" that is not GI.
As for mounts,I have the Brookfield Precision on mine,,Sadlak makes a nice one too.
My scope came exactly as you show,but before Jim Leatherwood passed,I acquired a "quick detach" base from him.I like the setup a lot. I can post a pic of the QD if interested when I get home from work.Let me know if you want to see and I'll post it. ;)

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Old May 27th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #4
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http://www.bassettmachine.com/files/...g%20manual.pdf

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Old May 27th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
Do NOT let anyone convince you that the Leatherwood ART I was used by the military,,the military NEVER adopted them.
The correct scope for Nam vintage M21 is the Redfield AR-TEL 3X9.
For anyone building a Viet Nam era XM21 clone, this bears repeating.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dprice3844444 View Post
Great! Thanks for sharing.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 07:52 AM   #7
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Gunny,

I'd get a copy of US RIFLE M14 FROM JOHN GARAND TO THE M21 by R. Blake Stevens. It'll answer a lot of your questions. The author doesn't devote much time to it, but considering Capt. Leatherwood's service in the ordnance Dept., the amount of money available and the mood of the times in 1969, I suspect that the early ARTs received extensive field trials.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 08:16 AM   #8
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Thanks for getting me into the topic! While looking for Senich I found a manual I'd forgotten I had. It's entitled the US ARMY SPECIAL FORCES FOREIGN WEAPONS HANDBOOK Published by OAC of S, G 2, USAJFKCENSPWAR and is dated 1 January 1967. There can't be many of these floating around.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 09:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willriskit View Post
Thanks for getting me into the topic! While looking for Senich I found a manual I'd forgotten I had. It's entitled the US ARMY SPECIAL FORCES FOREIGN WEAPONS HANDBOOK Published by OAC of S, G 2, USAJFKCENSPWAR and is dated 1 January 1967. There can't be many of these floating around.
No Thank you for your replies!
Just ordered the book US Rifle M14 John garand to the M21 by R. Blake Stevens on E-bay hehe.

I had already the book M14 The last steel warrior.
Also a good book, but not too much info on snipers or scopes.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #10
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Dutch Gunny,

Leatherwood ART II scopes made for the US Army were supplied specifically for the M14/M21 sniper rifles and were supplied in the Government Model scope mount dedicated to the M14. Leatherwood made other models of the ART II scope for police and civilian sales. One of these commercial models was the Quick Detach version as you have there. They also made a dozen different range cams for civilian sporting calibers, these cams were calibrated for 150-450 yards range. The military models always had a 300-900 meter range cam for M118 Match ammo in 7.62x51mm. (I have also seen a number of range cams marked 1-10, and these appear to be the same M118 cams just with the added numbers 1, 2, and 10, apparently for 100-1000 meters range. Other than the markings, the cams are the same and I think they were later produced cams probably made as replacement parts for when the original 3-9 cams wore out.)

Here's a photo comparison of the ART II Government Model as supplied to the Army and the civilian ART II QD model with the matching Leatherwood M14 QD mount base:



The rest of what I can tell you is not 100% for sure, but is the best info I have been able to find in my own research, some of it based on "Errornet" information, so it could use confirmation.

At some point, I'm not sure what year, Jim Leatherwood licensed the ART II design to DPMS. DPMS began manufacturing ART II scopes, with assistance from Jim Leatherwood and/or his employees to get production set up. The DPMS produced scopes had quality problems, they were not able to manufacture the scopes to Jim Leatherwood's standards. Eventually ART II scope production came to a halt, and Leatherwood and DPMS sued each other over the rights to the design. The court documents are out there on the Web if you Google hard enough.

EDIT: here's a link to a thread on ARFcom on this subject where DPMS themselves respond. As is typical with lawsuits, it's hard to tell who said or did what but the point is DPMS themselves claim that their ART II scopes were just fine. Thought I should point that out in fairness.

http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.ht...&f=30&t=100025

The only way that I have heard of to tell a DPMS ART II from an original Leatherwood ART II is by the color of the eyepiece assembly. Look at the two scopes in my photo, the eyepiece assemblies are anodized OD green. The DPMS scope eyepiece assemblies were anodized black.

So based on the best info I have, your scope is a Leatherwood ART II design, built for the civilian market by DPMS.

Hope this helps.

Thanks from Reaper6 and Dutch Gunny

Last edited by 2336USMC; May 27th, 2012 at 10:56 AM.
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Old May 27th, 2012, 11:38 AM   #11
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Pfffffffffff It helps, but double bummer..........
Not Vietnam era and a Civilian scope......couldnít be worse
Well now I am going to try to sell it for sure

Thanks for the info appreciate your help on the subject.

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Old May 27th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
The Leatherwood ART II actually came out in 1974.However it was not used in Nam.
Do NOT let anyone convince you that the Leatherwood ART I was used by the military,,the military NEVER adopted them.
The correct scope for Nam vintage M21 is the Redfield AR-TEL 3X9.
I'm in the same boat as you.I bought an ART II many years ago thinking it was GTG Nam era.Sooo,,I'm also looking for a correct Redfield.
ETA,,,as long as yours does not have "MPC" anywhere on it,then yes it's GI. Leatherwood made a civy version called "military,police,civilian" that is not GI.
As for mounts,I have the Brookfield Precision on mine,,Sadlak makes a nice one too.
My scope came exactly as you show,but before Jim Leatherwood passed,I acquired a "quick detach" base from him.I like the setup a lot. I can post a pic of the QD if interested when I get home from work.Let me know if you want to see and I'll post it. ;)
Thanks yes please,
I will have a look for the markings, but it doesn't sounds promissing all together....

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Old May 28th, 2012, 07:52 AM   #13
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Here is my set,and the background info. While chatting with Uncle Bill (Ricca) one day around 1988 or so,I always ask what new sniper stuff he had.He informed me he was bidding on a "lot" of Art II scopes from Anniston.His real concern was them shipping to him if he won.I made the offer and he accepted that if he won,I would drive down to Anniston to pick them up and hand deliver to him if I could have one as payment.Well,,,he didn't win the auction,Sarco did.Soo,I contacted MG Dave at Sarco and bought one before they even listed them in SGN.So,mine is as GI as you can get including the packing material,,released from Anniston.The scope is wearing the Leatherwood QD set,included in the pic is the original mount that came on the scope,also shown are the boxes that the scope was shipped in as well as the original box from Bill for the hardcase.






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Old May 28th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #14
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Interesting, thanks! That also confirms the Army was issuing the 1-10 marked range cams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
The scope is wearing the Leatherwood QD set,included in the pic is the original mount that came on the scope,
Just to be absolutely clear, did the scope come from Anniston in the QD mount or was it in the Government Model M14 mount?

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Old May 28th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #15
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Came from Anniston with Government Model M14 mount if that's what it's called,,the bottom one in my pics..I should add,,when I received the scope,it was still all sealed in the packing as in unopened along with an outer shipping box from Sarco. I had reason to call Jim Leatherwood for some reason I can't remember at this time..He recommended I try out the QD one and gave me a really good price,so I bought it and,mounted to the scope and it's been there ever since.I kinda amazed myself that I saved all the packing stuff thru 3 moves since 88-89.I don't store the scope or the case in them,,just held onto them,,,go figure.

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