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H&R trapdoor springfield 45-70

42K views 57 replies 32 participants last post by  13Echo 
#1 ·
Hi Guys:

I just acquired this rifle, hardly used looks brand new. It was made ,I think.
in the 70s or 80s when H&R reproduced a series of these rifles in various trim levels.

My question is, since this is a modern reproduction, what ammo should I use and what should I avoid. I know I'd have to be very cautious with an original trapdoor.

Looking in the reloading manuals, they have seperate listings for the loadings for the trapdoor, lever action, and modern bolt action rifles. But none of the ammo makers specify what their ammo is for.

Can I use commercial ammo in this rifle and if so, which ones?
 
#3 ·
All modern 45-70 ammo should be safe to shoot. Most is loaded to trapdoor levels , except some specialty manufacturers like Buffalo Bore, and Cor-Bon.

The major ammo makers know there are a lot of shooters useing older guns and load down for liability reasons. It is printed on the boxes if they think it is unsafe to fire in a particular firearm.
 
#31 ·
All modern 45-70 ammo should be safe to shoot.
Oh hell no. There are three degrees of 45/70:
Modern
levergun
trapdoor

Some of the modern loads will blow yer trap door off.

The last 45/70 lever I bought, they guy got two boxes of single shot 405s.
He fired 8, sold the rifle after his arm recovered.
I told said rounds, dumped the powder, reloaded them with Reloader-7, and shot them.

They were way to nasty for a lever, let alone a trapdoor.
Then trapdoors should only have hand made holy black shot though them
 
#8 ·
Originally, the .45/70 was designated for rifles; the carbine cartridge was a .45/55. When H&R came out with these replicas they were initially very popular but owners found that shooting the .45/70 rifle cartridge in them with either a 300 grain or 405 was a bit harsh. It should be fine with a .45/55 carbine load or its smokeless equivalent.
 
#9 ·
Stay with trap door level loads and you'll be safe. I just picked up a box of Remington 405g. s.p.'s and on the flap it says four use in all rifles. I'm trying to find a 1895 Cowboy in 45-70, their like hen's teeth. Just bought a Buffalo Classic in 45-70, and it's a lot of fun to plink with. And if you cast your own bullets, it's pretty cheep to shoot.
 
#10 ·
I proofed most of the H&R barrels while working there in 70 & 71. The project was called The 073 and they were lots of fun to shoot where I worked on the indoor 100 yd range. The proof round generated about 60% more pressue than the govt 45-70.
Never had a chance to buy one because I wanted a contender. Warren Center was still consulting at the time. He and our group would shoot z scoped .308 while standing in the range door for coffee. Yup, we had to pay for coffee back then.
 
#12 ·
Ooooohhhhhhhhh!!!

Thanks for the links speerchucker. Monday I sent funds to Fla. for 3 molds,brass and some gas checks. Kind'a getting itchy. I'm gona' have to jump on one of those 1895-CB's.
 
#13 ·
Strangely enough, there seem to be more of the Officer's Model Trapdoor H&R's around than the standard (full length) military rifle copies.

I have owned (and shot) around a dozen of the (various) original TD's over the years. As long as you keep pressures under 25K-30K psi (which is very easy to do), they are safe to shoot. Likewise, the (constantly) repeated advice about not shooting jacketed bullets or they will "wear out your bore" is complete BS (unless 10-15 THOUSANDS of jacketed rounds = a "quick" wear out).



Here is one of mine (with a nicely done) 'fake' Krag Carbine):
 
#14 ·
The original sights on the 1873 trapdoor series were marked with either a "C" or an "R" to distinguish the trajectories of both the carbine and rifle loads, as were the bullets. The powder load for the carbines during their entire production run was 55 grains of black powder and the rifle loads were 70 grains, with the long range rifle cartridge being issued with a 500 grain cast bullet. The heavier bullets were commonly shot at ranges of up to 1,000 yards. Any of the trapdoor collectors books I've read explain the difference between rifle and carbine cartridges. Unless recoil in eccess of what was intended in the original design of the carbine is desirable, the carbine load is much more pleasant to shoot and conforms to the carbine sight.

I have owned and fired many dozens of original trapdoor rifles and carbines, both common and rare, since they were $15 items and still shoot an 1879 model rifle. Original carbines have about doubled in value during the past ten years but serviceable rifles in collectible condition are still available at <$1,000. The reason rifles are still comparatively low priced is that about 500,000 were produced and probably half million still exist.
 
#15 ·
I have two of the H&R Trapdoor 45-70' carbines as well as a really nice original trapdoor rifle. If I were you I'd treat my H&R's just as if they were originals since the weak point in the originals were the trapdoor action. The modern repro carbines are certainly constructed of modern steel and should be better than the steel used in the originals but the weak link is still the trapdoor action. If you want to hot up 45-70 loads then get a Ruger No 3 or a No 1 and then you can approach .458 win mag ballistics.

7th
 
#16 ·
Be glad you're using the lower power loads. Those hotter loads will get your attention, especially in guns with the curved steel buttplates. I have one of the 'middle range ammo' guns, a 1885 High Wall repro from Uberti and I still use trapdoor loads because I want to still have a shoulder.
 
#17 ·
Like others on here I've used the 45/70 for years and it is a great cartridge. In the last 25 years I guess I've shot from factory rounds,300 gn,405's which are great for the trap door to really hot 350 gn loads from my browning 1886. Don't be bummed out with the lower power loads with the your rifle. It will punch a big hole in any animal you want to hunt in the continental U.S. . The hardest part is making a good shot at long range. A friend of mine has a cowboy and loves it.he really lucked out and got a nice grainy piece of wood on it. Dan
 
#20 ·
I have one of the Officer's models and it is a beautiful rifle. Nice engraving, nice case coloring and very nice fancy wood. I bought mine as new in box, never fired in about 1982. Paid $300 and it's a very nicely made rifle. I have read about some issues with the H&Rs with the bolt latch being held in place with a screw that had a tendency to loosen. There are methods to pin the latch but have never done it with mine. I would use ONLY loads suitable for TD carbines. I would not shoot any full power load in a H&R TD. I would err on the side of extrame caution and keep the loads very mild. Check with some of the "authorities" such as Dick Hosmer in the TD section of CSP forums. They are intriguing but be careful. Congrats on a nice rifle.
 
#25 ·
sorry, my mistake.

BTW, try shooting "full power" .444 Marlin rounds in a Marlin lever rifle. If you keep your eyes open (not easy to do sometimes), you can actually see the rifle torque/twist from the recoil energy. About 3 of these rounds from the bench was my limit!
 
#26 ·
Just had the Marlin out 2 weeks ago with some strong T7 loadings....



I agree on the Trapdoor shortcomings - and I own and shoot original's and repro's. They have their limits. In fact, the carbine version load is usually 45/55 IIRC, and not the 70 gr. loading.....due to recoil properties with the lighter shorter carbine model......
 
#28 ·
AKA Hugh Uno
"Strangely enough, there seem to be more of the Officer's Model Trapdoor H&R's around than the standard (full length) military rifle copies."


It is really not that strange considering there were 10,000 Officer's models made and only 1,000 standard, full length rifles made.

Sprint
 
#29 ·
Most of what I've heard and read about these rifles is similar to the story of the Chinese M-14s. The problem was the breech block , which was investment cast and often poorly machined and fitted. Nearby shop that does work on lots of black powder cartridge and military arms and specializes in Trapdoors & Rolling Blocks recommends inspection and often replacement of breech block with a USGI block.\

+P loads are NOT recommended.
 
#30 ·
Two places on the internet you might want to check out that will provide a lot more information would be BPCR.net forum and also the ASSRA forum. Lots of info in both places and they have searchable archives.

Not sure if this forum has a policy of posting direct links... so I didn't... but a search engine should easily find both.
 
#33 ·
I shoot Federal 300 gr. with an adjusted smokeless charge with no problems in original rifles. Due to the lighter weight, the bullet will strike about 12" high at 100M. Shooting the original blackpowder load with 405 gr. bullets is fun and recoil is reduced considerably. The smoke is considerable, as is the fowling. Trapdoors are great historical rifles. The only problem with them as investments is that approximately 500,000 were manufactured and it seems that a half million still exist.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I shoot Federal 300 gr. with an adjusted smokeless charge with no problems in original rifles. Due to the lighter weight, the bullet will strike about 12" high at 100M. Shooting the original blackpowder load with 405 gr. bullets is fun and recoil is reduced considerably. The smoke is considerable, as is the fowling. Trapdoors are great historical rifles. The only problem with them as investments is that approximately 500,000 were manufactured and it seems that a half million still exist.
NO~!

You have this totally bas-akwards (and wrong to boot).

AS A GENERAL RULE: In a given caliber, heavier bullets tend to both be slower and cause more recoil. A slower bullet takes longer to exit the muzzle--that allows the muzzle to rise slightly higher before the bullet exits. That puts the bullet on the target a bit higher than one that exits faster. When you add in the extra recoil, the effect is magnified.

WITH REGARDS TO THE TRAPDOOR RIFLE: The TD Rifle's sights are (were) REGULATED to shoot to point of aim at AROUND 250 Yards. For "minute of Apache," this allowed center of mass shots closer in and aimed fire at longer ranges.

In light of the steep trajectory of this round, you will ALWAYS be high at 100 yards with ALMOST ANY "normal" load or ammo (smokeless or BP). Aim LOW or MOVE your target back (or glue/solder on a taller front sight extension).

PS, I also recommend you google "BPCR + Blow Tube" as I can shoot BP loads CONTINUOUSLY without ANY bore cleaning of the fouling in TD's (or my Sharps) using SPG lubed rounds and a blow tube..

 
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