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Brake Effectiveness: SOCOM vs Scout

This is a discussion on Brake Effectiveness: SOCOM vs Scout within the Modern M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Guys, Did a search on "SOCOM vs Scout" and found an eight-page thread on the matter. Glad I didn't ask again! One interesting report is ...


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Old November 11th, 2009, 02:40 PM   #1
 
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Brake Effectiveness: SOCOM vs Scout

Guys,

Did a search on "SOCOM vs Scout" and found an eight-page thread on the matter. Glad I didn't ask again!

One interesting report is that the SOCOM brake seems to tame muzzle rise better than the Scout CA-legal brake, despite the fact that the Scout brake is longer. One would think the larger volume of gas afforded by the larger Scout brake would make it more effective. However, looking at the SOCOM brake one will notice that the holes are all on the top half of the cylinder, whereas the Scout brake has only a narrow strip along the bottom that is NOT perforated. Also, the effectiveness of a brake is proportional to the amount of gas AVAILABLE AT THE MUZZLE. The 2" shorter SOCOM barrel vents gas with higher residual pressure than the longer Scout barrel. Short barrels are known for their terrific muzzle blast, with a brake or not. Harness this gas into an upward vector and you have the fuel to make a brake work well.

That said, the lever arm of a longer barrel would impart a stronger upward torque rotated about the buttplate if the force of the upward vector at the muzzle was equal. But by most accounts the SOCOM has less muzzle rise so one might conclude that this effect is overwhelmed the the difference in gas pressure at the muzzle.

I thought this might be something worth considering because it had been suggested that the Scout might have even less muzzle rise if a SOCOM-like brake was available for the Scout. I don't think we'd see equal performance, but certainly the more vertical the vectors the more effective will be the brake at limiting muzzle rise. I don't know if one might be able to TIG up the holes in a Scout brake without bending it into a banana. Maybe if you plugged the holes with steel rod then TIG'ed enough to hold the plugs you may be able to shut off some of the holes without putting too much heat into the brake. I'll not volunteer my brake, though. Another fun experiment may be to mod one of those fake USGI devices with no slots. You could plunge some brake holes through the body along the top and not too far down the sides. If I had a mill I'd be inclined to try it but I don't.

Chilly

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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #2
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Just get a SEI coast guard brake. It works better than the factory brake.

I read somewhere that the socom brake actually pushes the rifle forward as well as down. Something about some of the gases hitting the front inside lip of the brake which pushes the rifle away from the shooter. I don't know how true that is, just something I read on-line.

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Old November 12th, 2009, 07:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Sumo99 View Post
Just get a SEI coast guard brake. It works better than the factory brake.

I read somewhere that the socom brake actually pushes the rifle forward as well as down. Something about some of the gases hitting the front inside lip of the brake which pushes the rifle away from the shooter. I don't know how true that is, just something I read on-line.
I think all brakes push the rifle forward as well as down; some just do it better than others and the forward vector is what reduces the recoil, which gives the brake its name. When the expanding gas is redirected by walls of the holes that are perpendicular to the bullet's travel some of the energy is expended pushing against the forward side of those walls (thus pushing the rifle forward) while the rest shots out sideways like the gas jets on a spacecraft. If most of the holes (and jets) are pointing up, the barrel gets pushed down.

A special case is the SEI USCG brake. If you look closely at the top portion, some holes are pointing straight up (like the Socom brake) but two others vent at an angle into cutouts and I bet as the gas continues to expand, some of it is actually pushing down on the outside of the brake, further controlling muzzle rise. By all accounts, it seems to be the best in the business. I've used two on my M1A's and one on a Garand and wouldn't change a thing.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:13 PM   #4
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I want my Scout to be quieter. It has the standard SA brake that came on it. My M1A Loaded has a factory flash supressor. (I believe SA Scouts are also available with flash supressor, not a "Calfornia" brake). So my question; is the 18 inch bbl more responsible for the increased noise or is it primarily the brake? I never have considered muzzle rise or recoil to be a negative factor for the M1A Loaded but I would opt for less noise with the Scout.

I should have started this as a separate topic but the Socom was a related topic so here I am.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:47 PM   #5
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I think that measuring brakes is subjective, and useless.

Ive read a lot about this and that working better, but i dont see it really better or worse. The only noticeable difference i can tell is the sound report between them, and weither a brake or not is on. A good brake is noticeable, a poor brake is the same as a fh.

I do know that i hate the amount of powder that comes back with the scout brake, but then again how much of it is the barrel compared to how much of it is the brake?

Thanks from Wayne M
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:49 PM   #6
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The scout will be louder because of the shorter barrel. But i would swap the brake for a fh, i think it looks better and will be less annoying of a bang.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 02:26 PM   #7
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Cannot speak to the Scout brake, haven't fired one. But compared to an equally heavy .308 bolt gun the SOCOM is noticably lower in muzzle lift, allowing the sights to regain the target quicker.

It was one of the more delightful features of shooting the SOCOM after years of bolt action weapons.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:46 PM   #8
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My Scout had the original CAL compensator on it and I changed it out for the slotted flash hider. Noise and recoil were about the same but sideways blast was totally gone with the flash hider.

That was the reason for putting on the FH. Folks to the side of me at the range were bothered by the ferocious blast from the compensator.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumo99 View Post
Just get a SEI coast guard brake. It works better than the factory brake.
+1 to the SEI brake, I hear the large JP/Delta group buy brake is even more effective, it looks like a howitzer. I haven't finished the build that has mine on it to confirm it.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
Guys,

Did a search on "SOCOM vs Scout" and found an eight-page thread on the matter. Glad I didn't ask again!

One interesting report is that the SOCOM brake seems to tame muzzle rise better than the Scout CA-legal brake, despite the fact that the Scout brake is longer. One would think the larger volume of gas afforded by the larger Scout brake would make it more effective. However, looking at the SOCOM brake one will notice that the holes are all on the top half of the cylinder, whereas the Scout brake has only a narrow strip along the bottom that is NOT perforated. Also, the effectiveness of a brake is proportional to the amount of gas AVAILABLE AT THE MUZZLE. The 2" shorter SOCOM barrel vents gas with higher residual pressure than the longer Scout barrel. Short barrels are known for their terrific muzzle blast, with a brake or not. Harness this gas into an upward vector and you have the fuel to make a brake work well.

That said, the lever arm of a longer barrel would impart a stronger upward torque rotated about the buttplate if the force of the upward vector at the muzzle was equal. But by most accounts the SOCOM has less muzzle rise so one might conclude that this effect is overwhelmed the the difference in gas pressure at the muzzle.

I thought this might be something worth considering because it had been suggested that the Scout might have even less muzzle rise if a SOCOM-like brake was available for the Scout. I don't think we'd see equal performance, but certainly the more vertical the vectors the more effective will be the brake at limiting muzzle rise. I don't know if one might be able to TIG up the holes in a Scout brake without bending it into a banana. Maybe if you plugged the holes with steel rod then TIG'ed enough to hold the plugs you may be able to shut off some of the holes without putting too much heat into the brake. I'll not volunteer my brake, though. Another fun experiment may be to mod one of those fake USGI devices with no slots. You could plunge some brake holes through the body along the top and not too far down the sides. If I had a mill I'd be inclined to try it but I don't.

Chilly
here's a thread from the archives that may shed some light on the brake thing...

Barrel Crown / Accuracy ? on SOCOM

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 09:56 PM   #11
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I have nothing to compare to but the socom brake seems very effective. A friend captured this video - it's not at the perfect angle but there appears to be little muzzle lift even with 20 rounds in pretty quick succession (7ish seconds?). It's not at all kind to the people standing next to you but seems to do what it was designed for rather well.



lol looked at original posting date - I'm guessing Chilly has figured out the answer to his question by now

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