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OK, likely a stupid question but...

This is a discussion on OK, likely a stupid question but... within the Modern M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I pick up my Scout next Monday and have been reading up on calibrating the iron sights. Please note that this is my first long ...


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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:01 PM   #1
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OK, likely a stupid question but...

I pick up my Scout next Monday and have been reading up on calibrating the iron sights. Please note that this is my first long gun. I have found zero targets for 25m but the range I am going is 25 yards and 100 yards (but you have to show proficiency to qualify to shoot on the 100 yard (you miss the paper once in 3 tries and you are told to leave is my understanding). So, my question is am I way overthinking that extra 2 and 1/3 yards when using the 25m zero target on a 25 yard range? I do have access to Solidworks where I could design my own 25 yard zero target if someone were to give me the specs (i.e. how far above the circles the line should be).

I am sure that there are some threads on here already dealing with this or something similar so please feel free to point me in the right direction. I do have Scott Duff's M14 Owner's Guide on order and feel free to suggest other books, YouTube videos or anything else to help a newbie. I'm sure there is a lot of stuff on the web but there is likely a lot of wrong stuff out there as well.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:29 PM   #2
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I think you are way over thinking this. 25yd or 25m, practically the same.

First time out, place a big sheet of paper and draw a bull in the middle to make sure you are on paper, then adjust sights as needed.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:44 PM   #3
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Your rifle won't know the difference between 25 yards and 25 meters.

Keep in mind that the 25 meter zero targets used by the military are designed for M80 ball ammo at about 2780 fps, from a full size rifle.



You put the front sight post at the bottom of the bull and the bullets should impact at the top X. This gives you a 250 meter battle sight zero, which is calibrated to the long line between the 2 and 4 on the elevation drum.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:49 PM   #4
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center front/rear sights.6-8 clicks up at 100

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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:51 PM   #5
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[QUOTE=Den60;2406002(but you have to show proficiency to qualify to shoot on the 100 yard (you miss the paper once in 3 tries and you are told to leave is my understanding).[/QUOTE]

What I got out of this is that not only do people who don't own guns in California hate gun owners, but gun owners hate gun owners. What happened to teaching a person how to shoot that doesn't know how to instead of asking them to leave. I can see it now, I wanted to learn to shoot but I missed the target 1 time out of 3 and the range told me to leave so what do I care if they ban guns here because I wasn't a good enough shot no one else should be able to shoot either, that's how I'm voting. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:58 PM   #6
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Ask them to cut you some slack since it's never been able to be zeroed yet. Who knows maybe they'll be reasonable.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #7
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Short range proficiency tests are common, especially in populated areas. They want to make sure you aren't creating ricochets or putting bullet outside of the prescribed impact area.

I have never heard of a 100yd proficiency requirement for simple range use, only for hunting licenses.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Den60 View Post
(but you have to show proficiency to qualify to shoot on the 100 yard (you miss the paper once in 3 tries and you are told to leave is my understanding).
What Range is this? I have never heard of this at any range I have shot at in California. Please let me know so I can be sure not to recommend this range to anybody. What part of CA are you located in?

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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:43 PM   #9
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Here's some basic info about the iron sights on your rifle.

1) Ignore the distance markings on the elev knob. It is unlikely that they have been adjusted properly - and there is nothing wrong with that!
Start by turning the elev knob c-c-w until the aperture is as low as it will go and the knob won't turn any more. If the knob does continue to turn w/o the aperture going lower, then tighten the screw in the center of the elev knob.

2) Most people 'count clicks' UP from when the aperture is at the bottom.
e.g. 100 yard is around 8-12 clicks UP from botton. 200 yards is another 2 clicks UP from the 100 yard setting. When you do get good zeroes for various distance - WRITE IN DOWN as how many clicks UP from bottom.

3) Yes, use as big a piece of backer paper as possible - e.g. 2x2 feet or larger - even at 25 yards.

4) I'd start with the rear sight 6 clicks UP from bottom. And remember that at 25y, each click is 1/4 inch point-of-impact movement.

5) Some scout rifles have been known to shoot too high even with the aperture at the bottom. If this happens to you, don't worry - call Springfield and they'll get you fixed.

Since you said this is your first rifle, I'm assuming you haven't used a rear aperture rifle sight before - it's NOT like the rear sight on a handgun!
You just look 'thru' the rear aperture - don't try to look 'at' it. And as long as the front post is not 'crowding' a side of the aperture, that's fine. Your 'concentration' needs to be on seeing the top edge of the front post clearly and to align that top edge with the target.

When you fire, consciously HOLD the trigger fully to the rear and actually continue to SEE where the front post was positioned on the target when the rifle fired.

And before firing with live ammo, do several 'dry-fires' to get the feel of the trigger. With a 2-stage trigger, start pulling thru the 1st stage as the sight picture starts to get good. When you get to the 2nd stage of the trigger pull, finalize your aim - hold everything steady - increase trigger pressure until the rifle fires and continue holding the trigger to the rear (DON'T use a delicate 'just touch it off' trigger pull).

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Old January 10th, 2017, 08:43 PM   #10
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As mentioned above, the marks and settings on the sight knobs will likely mean "nothing" as it came from the factory and until your rifle is sighted in. I offer this rather crudely made internet video to supplement Mr. Kosta's post and I hope it isn't too hard to follow for a beginner - no disrespect intended.


Thanks from boomerpusher

Last edited by DudleyDR; January 11th, 2017 at 12:06 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #11
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I agree with others above on your range. Where's this at, the Berkeley campus?

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Old January 11th, 2017, 09:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
Here's some basic info about the iron sights on your rifle.

1) Ignore the distance markings on the elev knob. It is unlikely that they have been adjusted properly - and there is nothing wrong with that!
Start by turning the elev knob c-c-w until the aperture is as low as it will go and the knob won't turn any more. If the knob does continue to turn w/o the aperture going lower, then tighten the screw in the center of the elev knob.

2) Most people 'count clicks' UP from when the aperture is at the bottom.
e.g. 100 yard is around 8-12 clicks UP from botton. 200 yards is another 2 clicks UP from the 100 yard setting. When you do get good zeroes for various distance - WRITE IN DOWN as how many clicks UP from bottom.

3) Yes, use as big a piece of backer paper as possible - e.g. 2x2 feet or larger - even at 25 yards.

4) I'd start with the rear sight 6 clicks UP from bottom. And remember that at 25y, each click is 1/4 inch point-of-impact movement.

5) Some scout rifles have been known to shoot too high even with the aperture at the bottom. If this happens to you, don't worry - call Springfield and they'll get you fixed.

Since you said this is your first rifle, I'm assuming you haven't used a rear aperture rifle sight before - it's NOT like the rear sight on a handgun!
You just look 'thru' the rear aperture - don't try to look 'at' it. And as long as the front post is not 'crowding' a side of the aperture, that's fine. Your 'concentration' needs to be on seeing the top edge of the front post clearly and to align that top edge with the target.

When you fire, consciously HOLD the trigger fully to the rear and actually continue to SEE where the front post was positioned on the target when the rifle fired.

And before firing with live ammo, do several 'dry-fires' to get the feel of the trigger. With a 2-stage trigger, start pulling thru the 1st stage as the sight picture starts to get good. When you get to the 2nd stage of the trigger pull, finalize your aim - hold everything steady - increase trigger pressure until the rifle fires and continue holding the trigger to the rear (DON'T use a delicate 'just touch it off' trigger pull).

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Thanks. Yes, I have read about focusing on the front sight which will mean the rear is blurry. Reading only does so much for me, more of a hands on learner and I do have a bad habit of overthinking things.

I was over at a buddies house last night. He is an avid hunter and plays the harmonica in our band. He said he has a buddy with some land not far from us where we can shoot out to 100 yards (he is one of those guys who knows damn near everybody). So he told me when I get my rifle for me and my son.

Speaking of Jimmy, he helped an old friend move in Arizona recently, an elderly Cherokee. After they were done his friend took him to a back room where he keeps dozens of rifles and told him "four for 400." Jimmy showed me them last night. The queen is a Miroku over and under 12 gauge. Really nice condition, just beautiful. He also had a Savage 22/410 over under which had some wear and needs a new trigger guard but just a different kind of rifle. Also had another 12 gauge and I can't recall the make, needed some restoration work. He also showed me a Ted Williams 30-30 lever action (basically a Winchester 94 branded under the Sears and Roebuck). It was in very good condition. I have to say that I have a great fondness for lever action rifles and now I really have the urge to buy one.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:16 AM   #13
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Welcome to the forum, from Silicon Valley. Sorry to hear about your issues with the range. We, in CA, are all interested in which range this is... Is there a website with the rules posted? Maybe there's a misinterpretation? Maybe it's one of the range masters' personal rules vs. range rules?

There was one guy at Los Altos R&G that forgot to attach his carry handle on his AR with the rear sight on it. For some reason he decided to shoot anyway at the 50 yard range. The range master merely told him "hey you are hittin' dirt - dangerous to be firing that thing with no rear sight - gonna have to ask you to stop unless you can find someone to lend you a rear sight". He didn't banish him. I happened to have a red-dot I wasn't using so he mounted that and proceeded to continue shooting.

Point is, as others have said, new shooters should be welcomed and taught, and I think in most cases, even in CA ranges, they are. If the range masters can't take the time, that's ok - they have to watch and be responsible for everyone, but usually there's someone with sufficient experience who'd be interested in helping. In teaching, we also learn things too. Out here in CA, whenever I take my M14's to the range, people are often lookin' over. You might find a line of people willing to help you figure it out, simply because they've never shot one.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:06 PM   #14
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Some ranges have a problem with berm height and down range bullet stoppers (like houses a mile away). I doubt they made up the rule just for giggles. I rather suspect they have had some negative consequences of poor shooting.

It also stops any attempt at rapid fire where misses are more likely.

Where I shoot, you have to qualify once at 100 yards before using the 300 yard range. I'm not sure what the qualification is (nobody ever said and it isn't written down) but a 1/2" group makes the cut. Maybe a 3" group would also make it. That might actually leave out some M1A standard models with some commercial ammo but there's no rule that you have to shoot the same rifle at 300 as you qualified with at 100. They're really just trying to separate the shooters from the others.

The other thing about the 300 yard range is that it is unsupervised. Cease fires are by mutual agreement; range safety is based on professionalism. It all works just fine and the people shooting 300 yards are pretty good shooters.

I can see where there are a number of possible reasons for the rules re: the OP's 100 yard range.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by schrader View Post
There was one guy at Los Altos R&G that forgot to attach his carry handle on his AR with the rear sight on it. For some reason he decided to shoot anyway at the 50 yard range.
I used to shoot there in the early to mid '80s. Mostly in the action pistol pit but often on the tin-can range. I don't know that those 2 ranges are still there but I sure had a lot of fun at Los Altos R&G way back when.

Also at Chabot, Sunnyvale and Metcalf. There are plenty of places to shoot around Silicon Valley. The 500 yard military style range (pits) at Chabot was fun!

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