M14 Forum

Lazerus2000 · February 17th, 2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocos

What kind of accuracy have you been able to generate with any of your shorties...and are they cut down barrels as opposed to factory barrels?

In theory, a shortened barrel should be slightly more rigid, and therefore slightly less sensitive to barrel harmonics, but my real world experience can't support this theory with the M14 shorties I've done. After doing a LOT of these shortified M14 rifles, I can generalise that chopping the barrels seems to have very little negative effect on accuracy ... if the crown is redone properly. In my experience, SOME shortified rifles may actually show improved accuracy, especially if the previous 22" barrel had significant wear at the muzzle or a dinged crown or a loose flash hider.

I have sold a few of my shorties to serious accuracy freaks, who hand loaded for them. There is at least one of my shorties where a very credible customer is reporting SUB-moa at 100 yds with his hand loads. WITH MY OWN EYES, I have not seen any SUB-moa groups from any of my shorties.

But to keep this in perspective,
IT IS A SHORTY, not a target rifle,
designed to be quick and effective UP CLOSE, on minute Bad Guy.

Realistic accuracy expectation for me on ANY M14, short or standard length is simple;

anything under 3" is acceptable

under 2" is common ...
with the right ammo and maybe a bit of simple tweaking.

Back when I used to built "TARGET M14 rifles for resale, I GUARANTEED 2" five shot 100 yd groups ... with GOOD AMMO. I never had any custiomer bring one of these tuned 14s back for a warranty claim. So 2" M14 rifles are not that difficult to find.

and a 1 1/2" M14 , a CONSISTENT 1 1/2" M14, is very good ..
not seen every time with every M14 ... shorty or otherwise.

Honestly,
once you find the load that YOUR M14 tells you it likes best,
I find a GOOD trigger job has more effect on improving M14 accuracy than most anything else.
[;)
LAZ 1

jmoore · February 18th, 2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazerus2000

First thing I would question with the stock above is the rigidity of that AR 15 sliding stock. Try it with an A2 stock or an ACE or YHM RIGID tubular stock.

[;)
LAZ 1

Evidently you haven't visited the Blog part of the M14forum.com site.

So, you will have more of my photos on your thread!

Shot 1 1/2 to 2 MOA at 200yds with a 22" barrel and the same mount, but a fixed stock.

Changed the front end metal. No accuracy difference.

Installed collapsing type stock. Again, no appreciable accuracy degradation.

Installed a brand new 18 1/2" barrel that seems to check out fine in every respect, including a beautiful no tool marks bore (Checked via Hawkeye borescope), but "accuracy" went to poo. Meaning 6-8 MOA on a good day.

Tried a bunch of stuff, even this:

No help.

Sooo. Threw on another used 22" commercial non-chrome lined $50 barrel (I didn't want to cut down the first one) and accuracy is much better! Not quite as good as before, but ~2-4MOA with PPU ball ammo. Acceptable if not spectacular.

BUT. If it's a harmonics thing, when the current barrel gets the chop, I'd like to try your "barrel guide bedded" stock to see if it helps. So this post may be a little on topic. And you brought it up first...

So again- WHEN you start production, will it be available down south?

Persistent little gadfly, aren't I? Avoid a direct answer again and risk more thread drift...

Lazerus2000 · February 18th, 2012, 09:21 AM

DOUBLE TAP ...
the site keeps logging me out???
[;(

Lazerus2000 · February 18th, 2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoore

Evidently you haven't visited the Blog part of the M14forum.com site.

BLOG?? Kess coo say Le "BLOG"???
Is that where you expose your private thoughts to the public??
Sounds absolutely titillating.

I'll check it this new fangled BLOG thing ASAP!!

So, you will have more of my photos on your thread!

MORE THREAD DRIFT AND MORE PHOTOS WOULD BE A VERY WELCOME THING.
IMHO,some times "THREAD DRIFT" could be called a "free and open BRAINSTORMING SESSION" and can stimulate the creative process.
And some times a picture IS worth a thousand words.

eg: HOWINTHEHELL did you get an AR 15 flashider on the end of an uncut 22"" barrel? and WHYINTHEHELL would you want to do that??

I've used standard AR 15 A2 so called flash hiders on some of my shorties, and in my experience they don't do much as a flash reducer at all when used with 7.62 NATO ammo.
So what made you do it ...
that way???

On the other hand,
I've seen lots of different GRFS attempts, and yours looks quite promising.
How did you index the barrel threading so that the GRFS ended up at 5:0 clock ... or did you cheat and use shims?

Did you make the GRFS base .100" taller, so the standard M14 front sight was the right height for a shorty?? Are you able to depress the rear sight far enough down to zero at 25 yds?? Did you trim the rear sight leg TO ALLOW A BIT MORE DOWN??

And most important question of all,
"Can you actually get your cheek and your eyeball down far enough to use a GI rear sight with the butt stock tube up that high??

Also,
have you noticed how every time you take the gas plug out to clean the cylinder and piston, that your GRFS rotates a bit, due to sloppy fit between the ID of the GR hole, and the OD of the gas plug boss?? Did you remember to put a tiny little lock screw on that "beak" /extension on your GRFS, so that you could lock the GRFS in place to prevent zero shift on dis-assembly?

BUT. If it's a harmonics thing, when the current barrel gets the chop, I'd like to try your "barrel guide bedded" stock to see if it helps. So this post may be a little on topic. And you brought it up first...

Harmonics?? Talking about harmonics are we? My sister, who talks with the space people in her dreams on a fairly regular basis, tells me that they tell her that 2012 is the year of the Galactic Harmonic Convergence. Who REALLY knows how this harmonics stuff REALLY works, and how it effects M14 accuracy?? THEORETICALLY, a shorter barrel, identical in all other aspects [ eg; a barrel PROPERLY cut down from a standard 22" GI contour barrel ] SHOULD have less "Harmonic resonance" than the longer barrel, and thusly should be somewhat more "repeatable" as to exactly when the bullet leaves the muzzle, aka more repeatable translates as better accurracy. SO, maybe you should wait till the end of 2012, testing diligently every week or so, and keep a spreadsheet to see if the Space People have been telling ,my sister the truth ... and that Galactic Harmonic Convergence REALLY IS effecting things down here on Earth??

So again- WHEN you start production, will it be available down south?
TALK TO FRANK ... I'm just the Geek in the back who designs the stuff. Whatever / whenever / how many / and who gets em is for Frank to decide. I think he is taking PRE-orders for the production stocks at the M14.CA web site right now. I think he is planning to start shipping the final product some time in March.

PS: Like I said earlier, I have no say in the business part of the stocks. HOWEVER, since you ARE such a persistent little gad fly, I can tell you that I DO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF INPUT INTO R & D, PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT & IMPROVEMENT, AND TESTING. I have strongly recommended that SOME people [ acknowledged experts with lots of M14 experience ] should be getting a LOANER PRE-production stock to test for their EXPERT feedback.

As soon as we have beat OUR LAST/ FINAL?? PROTOTYPE stock through the 1200 rd. torture test, I might be able to convince Frank to put your name on the list. A NON disclosure agreement would be required ... your input would be limited to telling US what you like and don't like, so we can MAKE PRODUCT IMPROVEMENTS AND CORRECT ANY DEFECTS. IF YOU WERE ONE OF THE SELECT FEW CHOSEN TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS FOCUS GROUP,
you would NOT be able to BLOG about it or POST about it till we said so. Do you think you have the self restraint requiired to do that?? [;)

Persistent little gadfly, aren't I? Avoid a direct answer again and risk more thread drift...

IS THAT DIRECT ENOUGH FOR YOU??

PS: did you even glance at my reply to MOCOS in this thread with dealt with his question re short barrels and harmonic convergence??
TTFN
LAZ 1
[;)

jmoore · February 18th, 2012, 09:47 AM

Yah, I read most all your giant posts. Sometimes even pay attention. And I can keep quiet when folk ask. Like ShootingSight LLC's/art7's new hammer design ideas. Some good stuff coming from that front soon, I hope!

BTW, art7's trigger is just arrived and initial impressions are quite favorable! Another piece of the puzzle in getting rounds to go where we want...esp. when away from the bench!

One last photo of yesterday's lovely outing at medium range, but not with a shorty, just a regular old TRW barreled thing:

600yds

Thanks for the insights! I'll get some detailed answers to your above questions when there's a bit more time. Doing some "mad machinist" and repair work (H&K) now.

jmoore · February 18th, 2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazerus2000

MORE thread drift please ... [;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore View Post
Evidently you haven't visited the Blog part of the M14forum.com site.

BLOG?? Kess coo say Le "BLOG"???
Is that where you expose your private thoughts to the public??
Sounds absolutely titillating.

I'll check it this new fangled BLOG thing ASAP!!

Not so far, your name will show when you visit. Easy enough to find, just click on the underlined bit at the bottom of my posts. Nothing earthshaking, but lots of details and odd thoughts. Feedback wouldn't hurt a bit, but there's not much. Which makes it more of a public notebook.

So, you will have more of my photos on your thread!

MORE THREAD DRIFT AND MORE PHOTOS WOULD BE A VERY WELCOME THING.
IMHO,some times "THREAD DRIFT" could be called a "free and open BRAINSTORMING SESSION" and can stimulate the creative process.
And some times a picture IS worth a thousand words.

eg: HOWINTHEHELL did you get an AR 15 flashider on the end of an uncut 22"" barrel? and WHYINTHEHELL would you want to do that??

I've used standard AR 15 A2 so called flash hiders on some of my shorties, and in my experience they don't do much as a flash reducer at all when used with 7.62 NATO ammo.
So what made you do it ...
that way???

How? It was a scrap bit of an old Choate Mini14 flashhider, I think. Small enough ID to single point thread to the odd M14 size.

Why? Weight reduction. And, no, it did not reduce flash much at all on the short barrel. Again, noted in the blog comments. So it's mostly a fancy thread protector.

On the other hand,
I've seen lots of different GRFS attempts, and yours looks quite promising.
How did you index the barrel threading so that the GRFS ended up at 5:0 clock ... or did you cheat and use shims?

Did you make the GRFS base .100" taller, so the standard M14 front sight was the right height for a shorty?? Are you able to depress the rear sight far enough down to zero at 25 yds?? Did you trim the rear sight leg TO ALLOW A BIT MORE DOWN??

The indexing was pretty good. One barrel needed shims, the other none.

There's two heights of the SEI sight base. I got one each for the different barrel lengths. There's a blog comment showing the lightening mods done to each. I don't zero at 25yds. I just use a bigger target at 100. No rear sight mod required.

And most important question of all,
"Can you actually get your cheek and your eyeball down far enough to use a GI rear sight with the butt stock tube up that high??

Barely. I don't like it with the collapsing stocks. The M16 stock was OK. Plans include raising the sight line a bit, but I really would like to find a set of Swiss Stgw57 sights as the replacements

Also,
have you noticed how every time you take the gas plug out to clean the cylinder and piston, that your GRFS rotates a bit, due to sloppy fit between the ID of the GR hole, and the OD of the gas plug boss?? Did you remember to put a tiny little lock screw on that "beak" /extension on your GRFS, so that you could lock the GRFS in place to prevent zero shift on dis-assembly?

Wasn't a big problem with the first 22" barrel. The 18 1/2" wasn't accurate enough to worry about minor zero shifts because there was no real zero.

BUT. If it's a harmonics thing, when the current barrel gets the chop, I'd like to try your "barrel guide bedded" stock to see if it helps. So this post may be a little on topic. And you brought it up first...

Harmonics?? Talking about harmonics are we? My sister, who talks with the space people in her dreams on a fairly regular basis, tells me that they tell her that 2012 is the year of the Galactic Harmonic Convergence. Who REALLY knows how this harmonics stuff REALLY works, and how it effects M14 accuracy?? THEORETICALLY, a shorter barrel, identical in all other aspects [ eg; a barrel PROPERLY cut down from a standard 22" GI contour barrel ] SHOULD have less "Harmonic resonance" than the longer barrel, and thusly should be somewhat more "repeatable" as to exactly when the bullet leaves the muzzle, aka more repeatable translates as better accurracy. SO, maybe you should wait till the end of 2012, testing diligently every week or so, and keep a spreadsheet to see if the Space People have been telling ,my sister the truth ... and that Galactic Harmonic Convergence REALLY IS effecting things down here on Earth??

Was all that really required?

So again- WHEN you start production, will it be available down south?

TALK TO FRANK ... I'm just the Geek in the back who designs the stuff. Whatever / whenever / how many / and who gets em is for Frank to decide. I think he is taking PRE-orders for the production stocks at the M14.CA web site right now. I think he is planning to start shipping the final product some time in March.

PS: Like I said earlier, I have no say in the business part of the stocks. HOWEVER, since you ARE such a persistent little gad fly, I can tell you that I DO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF INPUT INTO R & D, PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT & IMPROVEMENT, AND TESTING. I have strongly recommended that SOME people [ acknowledged experts with lots of M14 experience ] should be getting a LOANER PRE-production stock to test for their EXPERT feedback.

I guess it might pay to snoop about the site, then.

As soon as we have beat OUR LAST/ FINAL?? PROTOTYPE stock through the 1200 rd. torture test, I might be able to convince Frank to put your name on the list. A NON disclosure agreement would be required ... your input would be limited to telling US what you like and don't like, so we can MAKE PRODUCT IMPROVEMENTS AND CORRECT ANY DEFECTS. IF YOU WERE ONE OF THE SELECT FEW CHOSEN TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS FOCUS GROUP,
you would NOT be able to BLOG about it or POST about it till we said so. Do you think you have the self restraint requiired to do that?? [;)

As noted in the above post, I can be veh-wee, veh-wee quiet. Had not a Canadian military arms collecting website made me an advisory panel member, I'd probably never gotten into all this internet forum stuff as deeply as has had happened. Danged old computers, I could be whittling on a new hammer right now, but Noooo. Squandering time making all sorts of fancified colorated replies for who know who's benefit .

Persistent little gadfly, aren't I? Avoid a direct answer again and risk more thread drift...

IS THAT DIRECT ENOUGH FOR YOU??

PS: did you even glance at my reply to MOCOS in this thread with dealt with his question re short barrels and harmonic convergence??
TTFN
LAZ 1
[;)

Dang, that's a tough way to reply when you do fancy stuff inside a quote. Second go through anyway. Maybe it won't require a blue million edits, non-typing redneck lout that I may be...

Dredsen · February 18th, 2012, 09:58 PM

this thread has been entertaining.

i especially want the explanation on the ar flash hider.

Mocos · February 28th, 2012, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazerus2000

In theory, a shortened barrel should be slightly more rigid, and therefore slightly less sensitive to barrel harmonics, but my real world experience can't support this theory with the M14 shorties I've done. After doing a LOT of these shortified M14 rifles, I can generalise that chopping the barrels seems to have very little negative effect on accuracy ... if the crown is redone properly. In my experience, SOME shortified rifles may actually show improved accuracy, especially if the previous 22" barrel had significant wear at the muzzle or a dinged crown or a loose flash hider.

I have sold a few of my shorties to serious accuracy freaks, who hand loaded for them. There is at least one of my shorties where a very credible customer is reporting SUB-moa at 100 yds with his hand loads. WITH MY OWN EYES, I have not seen any SUB-moa groups from any of my shorties.

But to keep this in perspective,
IT IS A SHORTY, not a target rifle,
designed to be quick and effective UP CLOSE, on minute Bad Guy.

Realistic accuracy expectation for me on ANY M14, short or standard length is simple;

anything under 3" is acceptable

under 2" is common ...
with the right ammo and maybe a bit of simple tweaking.

Back when I used to built "TARGET M14 rifles for resale, I GUARANTEED 2" five shot 100 yd groups ... with GOOD AMMO. I never had any custiomer bring one of these tuned 14s back for a warranty claim. So 2" M14 rifles are not that difficult to find.

and a 1 1/2" M14 , a CONSISTENT 1 1/2" M14, is very good ..
not seen every time with every M14 ... shorty or otherwise.

Honestly,
once you find the load that YOUR M14 tells you it likes best,
I find a GOOD trigger job has more effect on improving M14 accuracy than most anything else.
[;)
LAZ 1

assuming that your "accuracy" builds do not conform the to the trigger weights for NRA competition, what weight trigger pulls have you been able to attain.

jmoore · February 28th, 2012, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dredsen

this thread has been entertaining.

i especially want the explanation on the ar flash hider.

Sorry, missed your post!

See Post #21- second inbedded red reply.

Mocos · February 28th, 2012, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoore

Sorry, missed your post!

See Post #21- second inbedded red reply.

Would you imply from that experiment that flash hider capability would have a direct relationship to it's size..namely length?

kabanchik · February 28th, 2012, 09:47 AM

[QUOTE=jmoore;805451]All that typing and you never addressed the question...

In actual fact I asked BECAUSE that new stock may do some good accuracy-wise for an 18.5" standard weight barrel which just wouldn't do right in either a McCann or JAE stock. Don't give a rat's behind if it's shiny or not! Just whether it'll improve performance of a shorty.

Not this one...

Nice-looking Berthier!! Absolutely cherry!!!

LausDeo · February 28th, 2012, 10:12 AM

[QUOTE=kabanchik;812100]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoore

All that typing and you never addressed the question...

In actual fact I asked BECAUSE that new stock may do some good accuracy-wise for an 18.5" standard weight barrel which just wouldn't do right in either a McCann or JAE stock. Don't give a rat's behind if it's shiny or not! Just whether it'll improve performance of a shorty.

Not this one...

Nice-looking Berthier!! Absolutely cherry!!!

It's like a poorly-drawn cartoon version of an M44...

Sorry for off-topic

Lazerus2000 · February 28th, 2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocos

assuming that your "accuracy" builds do not conform the to the trigger weights for NRA competition, what weight trigger pulls have you been able to attain.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz
No surprises here when it comes to trigger jobs ... just the basic 4.5 lb crisp trigger job most M14 gun smiters do. I am not the most discriminating shooter when it comes to triggers, as what I care about is that the trigger break is CRISP and consistent. I'd rather have HEAVY and crisp, than light and mushy [ which is also why I run the 5 lb connector in my Glock instead of the lighter versions ].

I rarely do 4 1/2 lb trigger jobs for the M14 for other people, and when I do, these are only done using NEW Garand hammers/triggers, and Smith over sized pins. And, because the stock IS an important part of an M14 trigger job, these triggers are only done for the ONE stock the rifle will be shot in.

On my personal Chinese 14, which we are using right now for accuracy testing on our Alloy EBR stock, I had to add a few ounces to the trigger pull to make it closer to 5 lbs. I found that when I switched the 14 action between the half dozen or so stocks I play with, even though the hammer follow test done after assembly would be passed, 4 1/2 lbs would double in some stocks.

I try to keep all my rifle triggers at about 4 -5 lbs, as otherwise I find that transitioning from my AR 10 to my AR 15 to my M14 at any single range session, can get .... complicated. As in, a "SURPRISE" trigger break can really and truly be a genuine surprise for the first few shots.
And, at least for me, this is NOT a good thing!!!

I don't do "serious accuracy builds any more", just some light tweaking and tuning to make a standard "rack grade" 14 shoot as good as it can without adding any expensive extra bits. As I said, I personally consider a 2" @ 100 yd M14 GOOD ENOUGH.

My personal Chinese 14 rifle is basically stock except for my standard tightening and tweaking, and has proven capable of 5 shot 100 yd groups at around 1.5" ... with the ammo it likes best, and with the US GI fiberglass drop in stock it likes best.

Yesterday, with this same Chinese 14 in our Alloy EBR stock, with the FREE FLOATED op rod guide adjustable tensioner set to pull slightly down, we got 100 yd five shot 2" groups with Chinese 7.62X51 BALL [ Machine Gun ammo fresh out of the links ] and also with 150 GR Fed SP .308 Win ammo. A promising start for our accuracy testing, but more tuning and adjusting of the adjustable free floating op rod guide will hopefully get these groups down further. I am personally hoping that when I find "the sweet spot", that this Chinese 14 will shoot even better in the alloy EBR stock than the 1 1/2" it has already demonstrated in a GI stock.

The "Weird Science" M14 experiments continue ...
I'll keep you posted.
[;)
LAZ 1

Mocos · February 28th, 2012, 11:28 AM

[QUOTE=kabanchik;812100]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoore

All that typing and you never addressed the question...

In actual fact I asked BECAUSE that new stock may do some good accuracy-wise for an 18.5" standard weight barrel which just wouldn't do right in either a McCann or JAE stock. Don't give a rat's behind if it's shiny or not! Just whether it'll improve performance of a shorty.

....in a previous post, he indicated that his "shorties" generally did 1 1/2 -2 moa....nothing great...but I don't think he wants to promise something and then not be able to deliver. It looks like a replication of a GI stock in aluminum with a different treatment for the butt stock. I would be interested in what kind of final weight he is projecting...