M14 Forum

str8shooter

I personally shoot much better at 500 yds while the rifle is sandbagged, or with some support rather than slung on my arm. I also have to agree that learning to shoot accurately at long distances is one of the attributes that make a Marine. Belleau Wood France was where the German troops were stunned to find themselves the victims of accurate, well placed fire beginning when they were 800 meters from the Marines. I would venture to guess these were fully stressed Marines, so these were definitely stress shots. I'm also pretty sure that history is full of other examples of the same. I'm not sure where you are coming from by saying that in a gunfight the person who trains to hit a target at a longer distance than his adversary has no advantage.

RAMMAC

Your response is completely out of context with what was originally meant. The original comments meant that every Marine is a taught to accept that they can become a Rifleman at a moments notice; meaning that they can be called upon to do the job and they darn well better be ready because it has happened before and will continue to happen. I came in to the Corps in 1975 as an air winger and half the guys I knew went to Nam as air wingers and served at least one tour in the grunts because they had too many air wingers and not enough grunts. I was with MALS-13 out of Yuma and I had several of my guys serve duty at forward areas in the sand box and they earned their Combat Action Ribbons. Who does the security patrols in the cities after the grunts clear the area, how many of them have been shot or blown up? Grunts are not the only people that get shot at. The Marine Corps tries (but obviously not everyone understands this) to teach us that everyone can be put in to service as a grunt and that it takes skill to be a good Rifleman. The basic skills are taught to everyone every year through Basic Skills Testing, even admin poges have to learn how to setup a crew served weapon.

It takes more than a disagreement with somebody's attitude to upset my day so you don't have to apologize for anything. If you have some sort of guilt that makes you feel the need to apologize then so be it. But now you have exposed the real issue here. You changed the discussion to one about MOS; specifically, what is the designated MOS of a Marine Rifleman. That's not where we started but if you want to take it there then yes, you are correct. The original remarks were meant to be a compliment toward Marines and you are turning this in to a "I'm better than you guys argument". You come across as if you think you have earned a title that other Marines are less qualified to claim. While you've earned the MOS and the right to claim having been a combat Rifleman in the Marine Corps, I as a retired air winger am not any less a Marine. While I wasn't a grunt I still did security patrols, REACT duty and other misc "grunt" duties. I spent three and a half years in the sand boxes probably about the time you started grade school. I had five or six deployments with MEUSOCs and one back to back tour of over a year and a half. Hell, I served as part of the Ready Deployment Joint Task Force (RDJTF) which eventually became CENTCOM. I've had my share of fights with grunts aboard ship and stateside so grunts hold no special place as far as I'm concerned, we are all Marines, they just have a different specialty than I did. We have all earned our bones, just in different places and different ways.

Your comments clearly prove that you feel that you earned a special place of honor that only Marine grunts can earn (Notice that the title of Marine is always capitalized. As boots we were taught that this is proper protocol, another of those little pride and professionalism things that I seem to key in on.). I can't help but wonder where your head is at. Anybody that has done time in combat understands that different things effect people in different ways, what scares the crap out of one guy doesn't phase another. So most combat veterans loose that "I'm more of a hero" thinking. I'm glad you are proud of your service and what you have been through but you really need to start putting your service in perspective. You mentioned that you don't think that the guys in the rear are any less Marines but you sure seem to focus on your resentment of anybody even implying that they were a rifleman vs. you having been a trained Marine Rifleman. What combat role did I play? Did you like that air support that those Cobras and Harriers provided? That was my combat role. How about your ability to talk via radio with those support aircraft, MEDEVAC and fire support? That's something else I helped make happen. Oh and you know that nifty 25mm chain gun that cuts through just about anything, that was me again.

Nobody ever said that all Marines wanted to be Riflemen, in fact I wanted to be a tanker but my dad and the needs of the Corps thought otherwise. What I'm saying is that a Marine, a true Marine, knows and accepts that he can be put on the sharp edge of the spear at any time. He has to accept this reality. And along with mentally accepting that concept comes the responsibility of having to work harder if he isn't an 03. Not only did I have to be good at my specialty but I also had to know enough about a grunt's job to keep from getting other Marines killed if I were to ever be put on the line. Thank goodness I took that obligation seriously because when I ended up in the sand boxes as a SNCO I was able to train and guide my Marines in such a way as to prepare them for the what they had to go through. I had several that got involved in fire fights and I didn't loose any of them. Why? Because I pounded it in their heads that just because they fixed airplanes that was no excuse for not knowing how to conduct themselves on the battlefield.

Oh, OK, I did my part but it wasn't quite as cool as what you did, I understand, thanks for your condescending appreciation for my inconsequential assistance.

Nobody said that anybody was throwing a sling on and assuming a MARKSMANSHIP style firing position (and yes, even air wingers are taught that there is a difference between firing for qualification and combat). The point was that the Army has proven, through actual field data, that the 5.56mm rifles are not capable of hitting out to the ranges necessary to engage the enemy in the majority of their contacts. And while you didn't see 300 meter plus ranges in your shootouts it doesn't mean that it isn't happening. What's more, the report I linked to was an Army report and they have a slightly different battle plan than the Marine Corps and that includes more outposts in the hills where they are seeing a lot of issues with long range fire fights. I don't know where you were assigned but if you were in Iraq then most of the fighting is urban as opposed to the mountain warfare that is predominate in Afghanistan. And due to the different combat environments the ROEs are going to be different, my guess is that if you take fire at a mountain outpost you aren't going to see too many non-combatants wandering around where the bad guys are, it ain't some souq on that hillside.

One of my pet peeves while serving as a Training Chief for a while was that the Marine Corps didn't do enough popup target style practice. The Army is good at snap shooting but sucks at marksmanship and the Marine Corps was the other way around. They both need to add some of what the other service does so that they can both be proficient at both styles of shooting. And yes I know that there are a lot of prior Marines in the Army, my wife served in the Army and then made the move over to the Marine Corps. Her reason was her dad was a Marine and she had several guys in the Army that were prior Marines that she admired and she finally decided that she would change services.

I'm done and will now vacate the soap box.

Blademaker

Well said.

str8shooter

I sense a brawl at the E club commin on...

8654Maine

Man, I remember some doozies happening at the E-club.

Who's better, who's tougher, who's stronger...

We've all seen/heard it before.

But, if you wear the EGA, you're good.

coloradosherpa

"But, if you wear the EGA, you're good"

Well said.

I'm over the pissing match.

BrokenVet

7th Marines are in 29 Palms, they moved there in the mid 80's if I remember right.

BrokenVet

I was at Fort Lewis, WA Army base target shooting at the range when this guy backs in the parking area exposing a Marine logo stuck to the rear window of his truck. He gets set up next to me, and after a few times that the range went cold I ask who is the Marine, the son goes my dad. Oh cool, so I ask the guy what he did for the Corps, he replies with Force Recon. In my mind I said oh ya, because looking at this target, he would have been better off using a shotgun and he was only shooting a 50 yards with an AR.

During the next cold range I ask the guy what was his MOS, he stalled and could not say it. So I offered, was it in the 8500, he says no its in the 7500. I knew then this guys is lying sack of crap; I am not MOS expert, but I thought that infantry based MOS's is in 03 field. I told the guy that I was a retired Ssgt. 3529 MT maint Cheif & 8531 Marksmanship Instructor (the old MOS #), His eyes got big as dinner plates. By the next cold range he packed up and left in hurry.

After I got home I check the 7500 MOS field and it is "Aircraft PILOTS" While Recon is 0321 from PVT to MSGT.

Next time I see that Jack -O- hole I will call him out on it. I still can't fathom why people do that kind of crap. Why not be proud of your service.

coloradosherpa

Some folks just can't be happy, satisfied, or proud of what they did, regardless of what it was. These folks usually have to lie, exaggerate, or lash out at others who did "cooler" things. I'll never get it, we're ALL on the same team.

xm-25

I see nothing wrong with changing your MOS once you get out. I went from

Alpha Co. 4th Plt.
2nd Amphibious Assault Bn.
2nd Mar Div

to

Expecting Co. Steak Flipping Plt.
Backyard BBQ Bn.
USA

Semper Fi.

willriskit

We still have the poser commandantress and PDD who is protected from exposure by league officials, and probably one other counterfeit PDD. Changing MOS's is bad enough if the individual actually earned one, but what about those who didn't and yet wear bogus rank and decorations on unearned blues?

2nd Force Recon during the early 60's was the best outfit we had. Just being sent there wouldn't get a candidate accepted unless he passed a grueling PT test which most didn't complete. Then it was off to jump school and scuba training after that. Rank was very slow and the associated responsibility with any pay grade was much greater than any other unit. Division Recon was easier to get into, but they also separated the wheat from the chaff. As an undergrad and Vet's club member, I met many who claimed to be from 2nd Force Recon, but the outfit was small enough that its leadership was known to me and we all know that any Marine knows who his leaders were. Now there seem to be Scout-Snipers everywhere.

Seventh Fleet

I didn't write a book either but one of my shipmates did write one about my ships tours of duty to the Nam. I bought a copy and it's spot on, the guy was there and knows what he's talking about. Hell I don't have to lie about my service, I am fiercely proud of what we accomplished and what we did. The author of the book went aboard about a year after I got out in August 66.

During her deployment to Vietnam the Rainier was awarded the Vietnamese Service Medal, the Vietnamese Combat Medal (with four bronze combat stars), the Meritorious Unit Citation, two Battle Efficiency Citations and the Vietnam Navy/Marine Combat Action Medal.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005W3A9HY?...rainier.com%2F

7th

coloradosherpa

My unit changed to 1st Civ Div, Force Recline couch plt

M21guy

I was discharged medically a little before I would have started thinking about a re enlistment. I was a 1341 Heavy Equipment Engineer. I was pretty good I guess. The Corps seemed to think so by giving me "that a boy awards." I made a career after the Corps doing it for awhile. I wanted out of it though. I was the happiest in the field training. I loved that part of being a Marine. So If I had re enlisted I might have inquired about being an 03, but since I was already in the engineer field, and training was just down the road for me, I might have asked to retrain as a 1371 Combat Engineer. Unfortunately as hard as I fought, I never got the chance.

Never lied to anyone about it. I am still proud being an engineer, fixing/maintaining that equipment. I know a fella who was in my platoon. He got booted for drugs. Even still he was a friend for a long time. But he'd tell all these stories of stuff he did to others, it was such BS. He has problems with women, problems with the law, problems all around. Being I'm completing my training now to be a cop hopefully I distanced myself. Because of it he sent me all sorts of texts and left messages hitting on sensitive subject matters with me. He knew full well what he was doing and he did it to hurt me. He is a bitter guy. Everything is someone else's fault. I think he, like all the rest that lie, do it to seem more than they are are, because deep down they're maybe ashamed or they simply have no moral character. I have no use for them.

CAVman

Your post made me think of this!



Good Luck To You In Your Training And New Career!

I Know You Will Be One Of 'The Good Guys'!



CAVman in WYoming