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Drop in auto sear ????

This is a discussion on Drop in auto sear ???? within the M16 AR15 forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; Originally Posted by bd111 FWIW, the info you'll see in Albud3's post above about the "forbidden 5" parts is consistent with current BATFE interpretation of ...


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Old March 17th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd111 View Post
FWIW, the info you'll see in Albud3's post above about the "forbidden 5" parts is consistent with current BATFE interpretation of the laws. I don't know about a trigger, but an agent told me they consider an M16 bolt carrier or an auto sear by itself to be a "firearm" within the definition of the 1934 National Firearms Act. This may not be "good" law and it hasn't always been "the" law, but it's not worth the ride.
A full-auto bolt carrier won't make your civilian AR (of whatever ilk) a select-fire or fully auto weapon. BATFE agreed, and there's a letter floating around the internet (Google "Chen Colt letter") from BATFE telling Colt that "as long as it (start paraphrase here) "doesn't make it full auto, you're good to go." Since then, every single Colt Defense rifle I've seen has a F/A BCG installed. Not to mention Noveske, BCM, Daniel Defense, and a few other manufacturers put them in their AR's.

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Old March 17th, 2010, 11:39 AM   #17
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Heck, here's the letter:
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Old March 17th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #18
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I get a lot of questions from the guys at work about the differences between the M16 and AR parts. Here is a good like to a site/page that shows the differences between the AR and M16 parts. There is a page on the auto sear for those that are curious and it discusses the legalities of owning one of these.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm

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Old March 17th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #19
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Post full auto

FWIW NFA or full auto parts are not illegal to own just to use if it installed in none NFA gun it is considered a illegal machine gun have the law book if you need me to look it up for you or you can go to batf.gov and look at NFA gun parts

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Old March 17th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #20
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Post not what it says

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyCPT View Post
Heck, here's the letter:
it states that a m16 bolt installation in AR 15 should be replaced with commercial parts or bolt carrier can be modified to AR 15 specs read it straight from your copy middle of first page second page says if m16 bolt installation in AR 15 it is considered a machine gun don`t want to start a fight just read the letter and it doesn`t support what you said

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Old March 18th, 2010, 06:07 AM   #21
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I was under the impression that the bolt carrier alone
could be used of M16 design.This I assumed was a relatively recent decision aimed mainly @ NM shooters.Something to do with the wieght of the heavier m16 bolt/heavier projectiles
being used cuts down on bolt velocity/wear.That doesnt affect
any other TG parts/auto sear etc. And I have seen no letter indicating otherwise but then I dont call atf often.The letter posted was to small for me to read OT the date which Ibelieve was 5yrs old.Id like to see current info, VERIFIED(ATF letter) as to the status of the (16 type) bolt. If anyones foolish enough to consider purchase of an auto sear via SGN etc Good luck!There not illegal in and of themselves BUT.If you own a AR
you are the proud owner of an illegal MG and I wouldnt doubt the sear comes w/its own ATF agent(s) to help install it and snap on the cuffs.That also goes for the other parts, simple ownership implies intent AFAIK.Be sure and be careful is the watchword and auto sears are definitely
out whether I owned an AR or not.
I would check on the legalities of the M16 type bolt carrier if i were a NM shooter there may be an exception written into the law relatively recently.Im sure Ive seen new man. NM qualty M16 type bolts for sale by reputable Co.I cant see that being done unless they were legal (bolts only).Please check however,
"I heard" wont cut it in court!

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Old March 18th, 2010, 06:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by gunnutbmg View Post
it states that a m16 bolt installation in AR 15 should be replaced with commercial parts or bolt carrier can be modified to AR 15 specs read it straight from your copy middle of first page second page says if m16 bolt installation in AR 15 it is considered a machine gun don`t want to start a fight just read the letter and it doesn`t support what you said
What you're referencing on page 1 comes from the original (1969-70) ATF decision (done with full agreement of Colt, BTW) on what constitutes a full-auto part. It is not the "decision" (or lack thereof, essentially). The last paragraph on page 2 (and specifically the underlined portion) was enough of a "no action" item for Colt to add F/A BCG's to their rifles, as well as the other companies. The reason the letter's 5 years old is that Colt's been putting F/A BCG's in their rifles for five years now.

If you guys seriously doubt the validity of this, a phone call to virtually any AR part manufacturer will substantiate it.


Last edited by ArmyCPT; March 18th, 2010 at 06:33 AM.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 06:54 AM   #23
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Based on the fact that the ATF put a man in prison for loaning someone an AR-15 that only went "full-auto" because of worn parts and soft primers I wouldn't take my chances of owning anything that cold even remotely be considered full auto parts.

The way most of the Federal guns laws are written leaves a lot of room for interpretation by the ATF and they have been known to severely abuse that power. All it takes is you owning the wrong parts and a gung-ho ATF agent and you are in for some trouble.

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Old March 18th, 2010, 07:43 AM   #24
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^ So if you bought a Colt (or BCM or Noveske or other rifle) and it came from the factory with a F/A BCG, would you replace it with a semi-auto carrier?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how far one would take this.

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Old March 18th, 2010, 08:55 AM   #25
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Frankly, I'd be more comfortable w/ a surplus M16 BCG already installed in my still-semi AR than in a box of parts on my bench. I don't doubt the Colt letter's authenticity. But it can be read at least two different ways.

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Old March 18th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #26
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^ How about new manufactured and not surplus? Link to BCM manufactured F/A BCG for sale

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Old March 18th, 2010, 04:45 PM   #27
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Post not as per atf

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Originally Posted by armycpt View Post
what you're referencing on page 1 comes from the original (1969-70) atf decision (done with full agreement of colt, btw) on what constitutes a full-auto part. It is not the "decision" (or lack thereof, essentially). The last paragraph on page 2 (and specifically the underlined portion) was enough of a "no action" item for colt to add f/a bcg's to their rifles, as well as the other companies. The reason the letter's 5 years old is that colt's been putting f/a bcg's in their rifles for five years now.

If you guys seriously doubt the validity of this, a phone call to virtually any ar part manufacturer will substantiate it.
the national firearms act, 26 u.s.c.5845(b) defines "machine gun" to iclude any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a wepon to shoot atomatically more than one shot,without manualy reloding, by a single funkction of the trigger

HELD: the auto sear know by various trad names including "AR15 AUTO SEAR" "DROP IN SEAR" and "AUTO SEAR II" is a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manualy reloading, by a single function of the trigger . consequently, the auto sear is a machine gun as defined by 26 u.s.c.5845(b)

with respect to the machin gun cassifacation of the auto sear under the national firearms act, persuant to 26 u.s.c.7805(b), this ruling will not be applied to auto sears manufactured before november 1, 1981. acordingly, auto sear manufactured on or after november 1, 1981, wil be subject to all of the provisions of the national firearms act and 27c.f.r. part 479.

editor`s note: regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession of such a sear and certain m16 fire controle parts is possession of a machine gun as defined by the NFA. specifically, thes parts are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun as defined in the NFA.(see important information concerning AR15-type rifels wich follows)

ATF has encountered various AR-15 type rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. company, SGW, Sendra and others wich have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machine guns

The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an m16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above will also shoot automatically by manupilation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.

Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than 1 shot, without manual reloding, by a single function of the trigger, is a machine gun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), The National Firearms act (NFA). In addition, the definition of machine gun also includes any combination of parts from which a machine gun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under control of a person. An AR 15 type assult rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machine gun under the NFA. Any machine gun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machine gun could the possessor to criminal prosecution.

Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the wepon will fire more than 1 shot with a single pull of the trigger.


In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of the AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed or replaced eith AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are avaliable commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

It is important to note that any modifications of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only
.

Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF office. Our telephone numbers are listedd in the "United Stated Government" section of your telephone directory under the "United States Department of Justice."

this is directly from AFT web sit and specifically called on colt and others for m16 bolts and parts and the drop in auto sear like i said i have the law book for NFA arms if you don't know and would like to know just ask
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Old March 18th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #28
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I couldn't get your links to come up, but I assume one of them is ATF Ruling 81-4 on the "forbidden 5." The govt's position is perversely confusing if not conflicting. That's why I said what I did about a functioning UNmodified part being actively used in a semi-auto, which still operates ONLY semi, simply because the rifle needs a part of that type to work at all, versus keeping a collection of UNmodified parts not being used but could be.

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Old March 19th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ArmyCPT View Post
^ So if you bought a Colt (or BCM or Noveske or other rifle) and it came from the factory with a F/A BCG, would you replace it with a semi-auto carrier?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how far one would take this.
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to buy an unregistered full auto sear out of the classifieds. I also wouldn't posses any other full auto parts, especially if I had a full auto bc. The ATF seems to operate at their own discretion and personally I don't want to give them a reason to haul me into court.

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Old March 19th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by gunnutbmg View Post
[COLOR="Blue"]
...
Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF office. Our telephone numbers are listedd in the "United Stated Government" section of your telephone directory under the "United States Department of Justice."
Interesting, but not surprising. Their stuff about the auto sear is spot on, BTW.

I doubt you'll even find a copy of the letter to Colt on the BATFE website; still, the fact remains: quite a few major manufacturers have been shipping factory new rifles with factory new F/A BCG's for over five years now. If they're selling something illegal, why hasn't BATFE shut them down?

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