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Can i shoot green tip ammo

This is a discussion on Can i shoot green tip ammo within the M16 AR15 forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; OP What twist is your barrel? 1/12 55 grain and under 1/9 45 grain to some 75 grain pills 1/8 45 grain to 77 grain ...


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Old January 29th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #16
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What twist is your barrel?
1/12 55 grain and under
1/9 45 grain to some 75 grain pills
1/8 45 grain to 77 grain
1/7 45 grain to 100 grain (must be throated propperly for the 80-100 gr pills) all of my barrels are 1/7 except one and it is 1/8. They all shoot the 45's accuratly, but do like the heavier stuff better!

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Old January 29th, 2010, 05:02 AM   #17
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Why A Midlength

Ok, So it's been established that I don't need a Midlength
barrel.
What are the advantages of having one if it's not needed?

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Old January 29th, 2010, 05:27 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mike6541 View Post
Ok, So it's been established that I don't need a Midlength
barrel.
What are the advantages of having one if it's not needed?
Personally, the midlength is very handy. You get the shorter barrel but the longer sight radius. That's a big deal to those with eyes over 40 years old - like myself.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 08:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike6541 View Post
Ok, So it's been established that I don't need a Midlength
barrel.
What are the advantages of having one if it's not needed?
Whether there is any mechanical advantages is up for debate. Many believe the extended gas tube smooths out the action better than carbine length systems. I am not sold on this, but it is possible. The biggest advantage is what KYShooter already pointed out...longer sight radius. I also prefer the look of a midlength over the carbine, especially carbines with 16" barrels. Here's my AR; CMMG Mod4 SA midlength...

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Old January 29th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #20
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+1What Shadow said In regards bbl twist/bullet wieght-config.
For instance a 75 gr flatbase ma shoot fine in a 1/9, 75-77 gr
BTHP likely not.All my 1/9s(full lenghth A2s) shoot 62 gr m855/ss109 very well(1.5 moa about max with my eyes).
I have a predator with 1/8 twist that dislikes 69 gr smks so much I thought I had a lemon.Switched to 77 gr smks and it shoots MOA easily.Im no expert in this regard but the shorter bbl with a 1/9 twist may be more particular about the heavier
bullets 69-75?Id stick with the 62grM855 or maybe better for shorter ranges(200-) the 55gr M193(better wounding potential)
Quite a bit cheaper.Im trying to save as much of the 62gr FMJSCBT M855 I can ,I can envision ATF/congress etc. declaring it an armor piercing pistol round, and illegal.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 12:17 PM   #21
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Barrel Twist is the deciding point for ammunition use. M193 is the 55 grain "gold tip". M855 is the 62 grain "green tip".

The M16A1 had a 1/12 twist, the M16A2/A3/A4/M4 has a 1/7 twist. Most commercial barrels nowdays on the AR15 have a 1/9 twist as a compromise.

The 1/12 twist barrel will shoot 55 grain well, but not the 62 grain. The Army Marksmanship Field Manual shows a drawing where an M16A1 (1/12) would group the 55 grain into about an 10 inch group at 300 yards. In that same rifle, using 62 grain green tip ammo, the group would be 14 inches at 100 yards and almost 6 foot at 300 yards.

The 1/7 twist barrel will shoot green tip 62 grain well, again an approx 10" group at 300 yards. The 1/7 twist barrel will also shoot the 55 grain ammo well, and would have about the same size group at 300 yards but it would be centered lower and to the left of where the 62 grain bullet hits.

There are a lot of details about where to aim when zeroed with one type of ammo and shooting with another, but simplest method is to shoot what you've used to zero.

Current 1/9 twist barrels are a compromise and should shoot both types of ammo well, with less difference in point of impact. You'll generally get much smaller groups from your commercial AR15 than from the mass-produced, lowest-bidder M16 barrels.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 12:51 PM   #22
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Just be aware, green tip ammo is a light armor penetrating round. DO NOT shoot this in indoor ranges. The owner will not appreciate the holes in his walls!!!!!!!!!!! It is the general issue round and the reason that we now have failure to fall drills. The bullet goes through soft tissue so fast that two shots to the torso and one to the head are usualy a common practice.

That round will shoot fine in the traditional 1/9 civi barrel. However the new 77 Grain hornady round that originaly came out for the 416 and MK12 can not be used in a 1/9 barrel.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 03:51 PM   #23
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It may not shoot accurately in your SP1 however. I was told that when I bought a bunch. I have an SP1 also. I haven't tried it out with M855 yet.

But IMO the difference between 55 and 62 grains isn't huge. I'll have to see how it does.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 05:55 PM   #24
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It's not the weight that matters, it's the length of the bullet vs. caliber. M855 bullets are extremely long, because half of it is filled with steel instead of lead. If the core was all lead it would weigh 80 grains or so, which is why it needs the fast twist to stabilize.

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Old January 29th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #25
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The steel penetrator is actually quite small I doubt it adds much OA lenghth.I have both IMI M855 projectiles and IMI
complete lead core 62gr FMJBT ,identical to the point I must se a magnet to determine which is which..For some unknown reason Sweden/Switz IIRC calls the dual core inhumane compared to lead core?AFAIK the M855 isnt designed to fragment etc like the M193 or worse the air filled front of the soviet 5.45x39 which is also similar to ww2 brit .303 ammo designed to tumble upn impact with tissue.The lightwieght
front of the projectile causes serious instabiity with the certainty the projectile tumbles causing wounding beyond the calibers expectations.I would imagine the air or wood filled front .303 projectile at least as lethal as the german 7.62x51 steel jacket fragmenting ball projectiles

In any event the 1/9 twist in all the 20 in A2's ive owned stabilized up to 69 gr w/o problem,1-7/1-8 advertised/and in reality stabilizing up to the 80 gr smk but being as long as it is its a single shot prop,the 77gr being the practical limit.Its very likely that unless you are retro and have a 1/12 A1 any AR you pick up will at least have a 1/9 twist and will satisfactorily stabilize most practical bullet wieghts in a 16in bbl.Wounding capability
we could argue ad infinitum and still disagree.But as civilians you shoot whatever does it for you ball or HP/SP.

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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:01 AM   #26
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=301895

This is why M855/SS109 needs a fast twist. The bullet is probably close to the same length as a 77gr Sierra.

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Old January 31st, 2010, 04:57 PM   #27
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With all due respect 2diffeent manufacturers will have very different shaped ogives as is obvious in the photo..In addition the photos are magnifid by 20-30x min?! so even though there of different manufacture
while mine are both IMI man there may be .o15-.o20 thousand of an inch?Is that a great difference in lenghth?Ill locate my IMIs and measure w/ a caliper if Im wrong by a large margin my apologys but in the real world how much practical dfference do you think it makes?
Again with the naked eye there is minimal difference not what your greatly Magnified photo indicates.Care to share with us the magnification used?! # 1 M855 IMI SC OA lenghth .905 in #2 SC..903in.IMI lead. core.871#2.873.Looks less than .030 thousandths approx. A negligible difference considering the other different bullet wieghts and if you havent i suggest you remove a steel penetrator the size is obvious in the photo from the OA lenghth and the density of lead as compared steel,in addition the jacket extends more beyond the steel core than the lead.Effectively youve proved the point for me with the magnified images.care to post thier actual size?

Bottom line is Ive recovered the steel button hardened penetrators and thier size is indeed minimal
as is thier wieght.Unfortunatley i havent wieghed them but my guess is they wiegh no more than 7- 10 grains exaerateder
Check for yourself and you will see how really small they are as the photos and measured lengths reveal.

PS;get your calipers and bullet samples or reloading book out! the 69gr SMK(@.903in. is about the exact length as the 62gr ss109/m855.All 4 including the 55gr M193/62gr fmjlc are stabilized by the 1/9 twist.
the 77gr SMK is longer requiring the 1/8/-1/7 twist.A flat based 75 gr bullet MAY be stabilized by a 1/9 twist but i wouldnt count on it at extended range or possibly even close range. The 1/7 twist isnt requred to stabilize the M855 62 gr bullet but the very long m856 tracer designed to trace to 800m with an according amount of light tracer material greatly extending its length.

I happened to measure a friends opened box of 77 gr SMK' projectiles.They werent just a bit longer than the 62gr M855 @ an OA lenghth of .905 fr the M855 but near 1in long @ .995.The 77gr bulets need every inch of the 1/7-8 twist 20 in bbls.Anoter advantage to the std 20in bl is not just lenghth between the open sights which armore prne t aiming erros but the extra 4in of bbl lenghth
extends the maximum range - velocity needed to fragment the 55-62 gr bullets.The extra 4in likely extends the range the 55gr FMJ fragments by about 50yds and increases acurate firing range.So if i didnt need the shorter OA lenghth for convenient use in a car or entry gun Id stick with the std lenghth bbl>Thers good reason the govt has carbines and rifles not just kewl factor but valid reasons.


Last edited by grndpndr; February 2nd, 2010 at 03:20 PM.
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