M14 Forum

berndog

I currently own and shooting an M-14/M1 NM and my dream is to make that happen by beating those dastardly little black rifles!

But things as they are I am considering breaking down and treding over to the dark side and build me one of these god awful, ugly, plastic bastards and be prepared to use that to accomplish the mission if need be.

So question is build, buy, and from whom?
Rock River Arms seams to be 1 of the big ticket NM Service rifle uppers.
Questions I have about them are
1. I believe 1-8 twist rate is what they offer. Is that the best for service rifle? Personally I like 1-7 twist.
2. What barrel comes one one their NM a-2 uppers? IE make, type of rifling, chrome lined or not ( and which is better)?
3. Is it important to have this new "Wylde" chamber reaming? What's the benefit from standard or M-4 RAmp?

White Oak Arm.
Heard there also the bomb! Understand they do have a 1-7 twist barrel.

What's better pre ban or post ban? Heard some where that the Flash suppressor if installed to tight can effect harmonics. Any truth to that?

Heard you should remove FS from barrel and clean carbon out every now an again. Also heard that not doing so can effect accuracy. Seeing I live in PRK the FS would have to be pinned or welded. So questions
1. Does either WOA or RRA offer a NM with a welded or pinned FS
2.is the post ban allowed in CMP service rifle comp.?
3. Is any of the issues said above truly an issue with the Flash suppresor or just hog wash?

Heard I could buy an upper and barrel have it sent to WOA and they would do their magic. Is that true? Which barrel Company, contour, chrome lined or not, ECT.....

Or is it just the same and less hastle (few more dollars than building it on my own I know) just to buy either of these uppers in their NM service rifle form and be done with it?

Guy hear local in San Diego, says he will sell my a WOA, A-2, NM, SS post ban upper complete OUT THE DOOR for $669.00. Is that to good of a deal to turn down? Prices hear in So Cal are normally 15-20% higher than suggested retail or than any other place in the real US!

Hope this ain to much or gibberish to put down and for the masters to help me with! I researched My M-14 on my own, didn't really ask questions and went with my best WAG! Think I could have made out atleast 3-400 cheaper and I'm not convinced that the Citerion Med contour, Chrome lined barrel was the best choice for accuracy! Time will tell! Got my first non leg match with the M-14 coming up on the 28th!

warbird9

I shoot RRA and have been satisfied with it. I intalled a Geissele trigger and changed the sights to my preference. It has not held me back whatsoever.
I bought the post ban for fewer hassles with maintenance.

I am at 3500 rounds and groups are starting to open a smidge.

My replacement upper will be a WOA with pinned sights.

Both companys use a Wilson blank, IIRC.

My 1:8 handles 80 grain bullets. I will try the 1:7 next time.

82nd ABN

Had one built using a Krieger hbar barrel. I sent it to woa and they did a great job. Personally I build mine or at least in this case choose what barrel I'm having the upper built in. I called John Hollinger today to ask what the turn time is on getting an upper built. He said 20 weeks which is no good for you because the season will bs half over. I built my lower with an LRB lower gieselle service rifle match trigger and the rest of the parts are pretty much all the same. So with John telling me 20 weeks I called compas lake engineering in Florida. Frank said he can turn it in a week. Normally I build all my rifle but one thing that wow and compass lake do is machine flats on the barrels and use set screws to hold the front sight base on rather than pin them through the barrels. This seems to be the new wave of the future. With that said I drill two holes in all my Krieger heavy barrels to attach the op rod guides. I drill slow and use pleanty of lube to prevent heat. I always say that 95% of mechanical accuracy come from the barrel and trigger. For example, my Krieger AR-15 upper came back from woa and all I had to do was change my front sight on turn up and I was on the x ring on an SR-1 target off bags at 100 yards. I did the same thing with my AR-10A2 with a Krieger barrel. Guess what I'm saying is to get a 1/7.7 Krieger hbar and a ga service rifle match trigger. I built a preban that won't see the light of day until I find a preban lower. NY. So the one I am sending to compas lake tomorrow is a post ban. They use four set screws as opposed to three that woa uses. As far as m4 feed ramps you don't need them and most A2 service rifle uppers come with well service rifle ramps. So when you order your barrel specify a rifle barrel extention. Wish I needed the coin I would sell you my preban upper. It's only got 50 rounds down the tube. A Wyler chamber will allow you to shoot both milsurp and commercial ammo. I have all mine done with a Wyler chamber and I have been shooting black hills 75 grain they love the stuff. As far as the FH I asked around at the matches and most of the competitors agree that they said they get more accuracy with a simple target crown no FH that with one. I have no personal experience to give you a first hand account. If you do go with woa they have Krieger barrels in stock, they contour them a little larger in diameter than Krieger does. If you order a Krieger hbar and they are not in stock it will take you approx 16 weeks to get one. I personally would not use anything else as far as barrels and triggers. LRB lowers AR a great price and installing the parts is a piece of cake. You can do it with simple shop tools. Punches roll pin holder small brass hammer. Noting to extravagant. As I mentioned the only reason I'm sending the uppers out to get built is because of the machining of the flat and the set screws on the front sight base. Using a Krieger barrel will cost you a little more for your upper. I built my last one for 1500. It is an insanely accurate -15. I fully expect the one im sending off to compass lake tomorrow to be just as accurate. I know you don't know me from a hole in the wall but trust me on this one.
My AR-10A2

My AR-15A2

15 and 14 comp rifles

Hate the stainless steel washer. That will eventually get swapped out. I'm also changing the A2 buttstock for an A1 buttstock I got from my friend Eric. Did my research on this one so if you have any questions feel free to ask away. I am not a fan of chrome lined barrels for match rifles.

82nd ABN

Oh yeah I also used a 1/4x1/4 match rear sight that woa sells. They have multiple apertures that are easy to change and for a front sight blade I went with a .052 width.
I'm like you, I have been using my 14. Last year was my first year competing and it's the most fun I ever had with my cloths on. Only reason I'm building the second upper is to bs NY compliant and the -15 is the only rifle they let you bring to the SAFS course. I think they are the only caliber they let you shoot at camp smith upstate NY also. Best of luck!

Shoot I forgot, I also got the lead weights for the free float tube and the buttstock. The -10A2 is not free floated, nobody makes an A2 free float tube with a -10 barrel nut. Not yet but I have high hopes.

FICK_USMC

OK here's the straight dope on NM ARs.
The RRA NM rifle can shoot High Masters scores right out of the box. It has a 1 in 8 Wilson SS barrel with Wylde chamber. This allows either .223 Rem, and 5.56 NATO ammo. You don't want to shoot NATO ammo anyway, but this chamber can do both.
Bushmaster, and Armalite also use the same barrel, and chamber.
The WOA upper is a premium piece with a reputation for winning, at almost the same price as the production uppers. With WOA you have the option to have the rear sight pinned. This will be a little extra, but it is a distinguishing characteristic of a WOA NM upper. You can send WOA your upper, but there may be a long turn around time because this is time of year that they get swamped with orders.
Post ban, or pre ban, it doesn't matter. If you like the little comp on the front, have at it. None of mine do, but I guess it looks cool. The military teams have to have them, but you don't.
If you have a preference of a Krieger barrel, then the WOP (White Oak Precision) is the way to go if. Plus the WOP's get the personal attention of John Hollinger for fitting, and chambering. The match grade Wilsons, or Kriegers are SS, and not chrome lined.
All WOA front sight bases are zero-able for windage with allen head screws on both sides, unlike standard front sight basses that are pinned. Compass Lake also uses this system.
You can't go wrong with an RRA NM, Armalite, or Bushmaster. I know a junior that made High Master, Distinguished, and P100 with an off the rack RRA NM. Most people burn up their production barrel after two or three seasons and then go to WOA for the rebarrel and sight pins.

FICK_USMC

In the SAFS held at Perry during the National Matches, you have to use an issued A2 and not your own. But making the top 10% of non EIC point holders will earn you 4 introductory EIC points. The only other way to earn 4 introductory EIC points, is to place in the top 10% of non point holders in the Eastern, or Western Games Special Garand EIC. These points can only earned once.

plsmyk

You can order a National Match upper direct from WOA with the pinned rear sight for $750.00 ($695.00 without the pinned rear sight) so $669.00 is a good deal if it is new, not used upper. Buying from from him will save having to wait if you order from WOA. Mine took 12 weeks from order to delivery when I ordered it a year ago. Ask him if the one he is selling has the pinned rear sight. For $669.00 I would guess no. Personally, I would spend the extra money, order one from WOA with the pinned rear sight and wait for it to arrive. If you just have to have one now, his sounds like a good deal if it's new.

The flash hider is pretty much personal preference. The rifle shouldn't shoot any different with one than without it. I know people who travel a lot to matches and they buy the post-ban/no flash hider version so they don't have to worry about where it is legal or not legal. With no flash hider, it's one less thing to worry about and one less thing to have to clean.

Either the RRA or the WOA will shoot tiny little knots if you do your part. You'll be well served with either one. If you order an upper from WOA, they come with three different rear apertures so you can experiment to find which one works best for you, or swap them out for different lighting conditions. You can also pick from three different front sight sizes when you order, and choose from 1/4 min. or 1/2 min. rear sight graduations. The WOA also has a match modified front sight base that makes it possible to mechanically zero your rear sight. I'm not sure if the RRA gives you all of these options.

Finally the WOA is built by a high power rifle competitor for high rifle competitors. They know what it takes to build a winning upper.

As far as twist goes, either the 1:7, or 1:8 will shoot the heavier bullets just fine.

Geesh...you guys type too fast!! :-)

plaindave

I agree that pretty much any of the stock NM rifles will shoot great. I have the Armalite A2 version and my dad has the RRA A4 style. With either one I can keep all my shots in the black at 300 yards. Both shoot better than I can. They don't seem to be picky about what ammo I use either.

And if you can wait until July both sell their NM versions for around $950 at camp perry.

2336USMC

Howdy,

I think you are getting some great advice here. I'm a little confused though by the pinned/welded FS. I also live in the PRK, am very familiar with the laws, and I know of no such requirement. The laws as they affect the AR type rifle say nothing about pinning or welding a FS.

Either way, for a match rifle, the best thing to do is just leave the FS off completely. Adding a FS to a match barrel is extra machining, adds torque/stretch forces to the muzzle, and affects gas flow at the critical moment that the bullet is exiting the muzzle. A FS can't help accuracy at all, but might hurt it, so just get a plain muzzle no threads and skip the whole issue.

What IS an issue in PRK is the detachable magazine. In order to buy a new AR in PRK you pretty much have to have some kind of bullet button mag lock that makes the magazine non-detachable unless you use a tool. I honestly don't know how people are dealing with this in service rifle competition in CA, the requirement for a mag change during rapid fires hasn't gone away AFAIK. Maybe people are just keeping a tool (i.e. a cartridge) handy at their firing point to change mags, and I'm not even sure if that's legal. Last I heard there was still some debate over the legal status of an AR with a bullet button mag lock after you use a tool to remove the mag, since the rifle at that moment no longer has a FIXED MAGAZINE of less than 10 rounds.

Someone currently active in service rifle comp in CA might chime in to answer how that is being dealt with on the line.

Good luck!

KYShooter

Lots of good info here and I'll add my $0.02 worth. Having owned several barrels, I do know that RRA barrels, though good, can be somewhat finicky on load development. WOA barrels, on the other hand, seem to stack hits on top of each other regardless of the load used.

FH's are a matter of personal preference. Personally, I like them for the muzzle protection. As for harming accuracy, having FH's on the rifles doesn't seem to be holding back the AMU, or any other service team, shooters any.

I'm a big fan of John Hollinger's products. They are excellent quality at affordable prices.

Stg1944

I began shooting SR about two years ago. Ended up with a RRA NMA4, with ¼ min sites, FH, 1x8 twist primarily because it was what I could get my hands on. Bushmaster or Armalite would have been fine for me as well. At the time I did not know about WOA/WOP or CLE. Anyway, the RRA easily shoots better than I do.

My idea, at the time, was to burn up the barrel learning how to shoot the rifle, load development practice and the monthly match. When the time comes a re-barrel would include the brand of barrel, or perhaps, upper of my choice.

Somewhere along the way, I got off track and into an SAI Loaded M1a which I find to be a lot more fun than the soulless black rifle. Admittedly, I haven’t been able to shoot it as well as the RRA yet, but that is a challenge I gladly face.

Regardless, I’ve been happy with the RRA.

82nd ABN

About 10 days ago I sent Compass Lake Engineering a Krieger post ban HBAR. Its on its way back as of today. I will brave the cold and get it to the range hopefully this coming weekend. I have a match but I will be shooting the 14SM. I am hoping I can stick around afterwards and send a few downrange with the new upper. COmpass Lake has a very very quick turn time. I plan on sending them an Krieger M4 HBAR in the near future. I am going to have them cut it to 14.5 inches or whatever give it an oal of 16 inches. cut the flats on the barrel and install the FH with the set screws and to top it off have them tim and pin the JP Tac Comp. I hate NY laws.

Skeet6

Camp Smith is limited to 5.56 and 7.62 only, (no '06). It is the result of a Gov't. study for safety fan, etc... and they didn't use 30 '06 in the testing, therefore, no more use of it.
(I know, I know... we all know that it's really pretty much the same ballistically, but "thems the rules"...)

Most important part of that equation is to see whether or not we get any dates this year, (last year was a wash.)

Mike B

ppcshooter1

That's funny. Mine has been free floated over a year now. Afaik, no one makes an under handguard free float tube for the AR-10 because the rules for shooting AR-10s in XTC requires the rifle to externally look like M-110 which has a railed fore end. I got mine from Superior Weapon Systems, http://www.superiorweaponssystems.com/E1Rifle.htm

Marty