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Barreling the M1A

This is a discussion on Barreling the M1A within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I was just reading the very interesting posts started by 82nd. regarding barreling or re- barreling the M1A. I suppose this includes the Garand also. ...


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Old March 8th, 2010, 10:55 AM   #1
Lifer
 
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Barreling the M1A

I was just reading the very interesting posts started by 82nd. regarding barreling or re- barreling the M1A. I suppose this includes the Garand also.

I would not be the person to insist barreling should be done by an expert, the tools are available. The issues that comes to mind are developed in the posts. These issues are, How do I? How do I know? What can I expect?

The Posts , as I understand them, centers around getting the barrel TDC.. This is important to those that want the front sight blade to be close to center on the sight base, providing the rear sight ample movement in either direction. Those off to the side front sights are unsightly...

It is reasonable to expect a new barrel to index at TDC and the splines to be in the proper rotation that allows all the attachments to be at Dead Bottom. that is, not hanging off to one side. It is unreasonable to receive the opposite, but it happens. Now you have three choices, maybe more. One of the two described above or discard the barrel.

It is possible to purchase/obtain a barrel that when brought up to TDC will have the splines over or under rotated. You are now faced with a decision. Do you go with the barrel at TDC which will result in the attachments hanging off to one side. Or do you center the attachments and have a off to one side front sight which will result in having to cant. ?

This is starting to sound like a Steganogram, VG 9 will help us out. Art

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Old March 8th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #2
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Art you don't need V9 to elaborate but I would like to hear from him anyway. You yourself have a way with words. After reading the replies to my two threads, it seems as though the most modern way of attempting to get the barrels indexed near perfect is with the use of a magnetic digital level. Please look at the link for one I found and let me know what you think gents. http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=6407
All other factors being in spec. I plan on using Krieger barrels on all the builds. They all clock correctly hand tight and I would assume that considering the close tolerances they adhere to with regard to concentricity of the bore they would follow suit with the outside dimensions, IE the barrel shoulder indexing correctly and the FH splines being machined correctly. I do not yet know how to spec out a receiver but before this is all over I will. I ordered Jerry K's book today and hope to get some insight as to how that is done. I am also using recently forged LRB receivers so again I am assuming they are within spec as well. I have more than one question as you may already know but one that stick out. I have been reading on the use of the pull through reamer. Is there a bushing that is used behind the reamer that the bolt closes on that is specific to the headspace you desire? Is that a method for another type of action. Is the preferred method ream and measure ream and measure?

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Old March 8th, 2010, 12:23 PM   #3
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Pull through reamer

The one I used was a GI issue, it had an adjustable head to control depth. The bolt was used to push gently against the reamer head until it full closed. This particular ream was pre-set so chamber HS was 1.632". I never changed it, Of course there was the off chance you might encounter a long or short M14 bolt which had to be taken into account. I used the pull reamer along with a M14 Field test bolt, after checking the HS with intended bolt. sometimes adjustments were made, seldom however. it was quicker to just slip another bolt in until satisfied.

Good Post . Art

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Old March 8th, 2010, 12:54 PM   #4
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Krieger, but in the future I might try Rock Creek and get it in 5R

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Old March 8th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #5
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Been looking at those. Krieger is now doing the 5R rifling on there barrels but I am pretty sure they are not doing it on the
M1Garand and M14 Barrels. Did obermeyer patent the 5r process? Sorry to get off track Art and thanks for letting me chew your ear off on the phone this afternoon. You are definitley keeping up with the forum montra of "Keeping the tradition alive".

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Old March 8th, 2010, 01:39 PM   #6
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Question Patent?

No, Boots didn't patent the 5R rifling process. He got it (the idea) from the Russians, when the US military asked him to analyze the then "new" rifling that was being used on the AK74.

I have cut-rifled barrels from Obermeyer, Bartlien, and Border on a few of the bolt action rifles at home.

.

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Old March 8th, 2010, 01:53 PM   #7
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It was a newb question I know. I would love to get a Obermeyer for the 14. I know he is pretty busy these days and he is a one man show. You are a lucky man to have them. Thanks for the history lesson.

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Old March 8th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #8
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Wink Lucky!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82nd ABN View Post
It was a newb question I know. I would love to get a Obermeyer for the 14. I know he is pretty busy these days and he is a one man show. You are a lucky man to have them. Thanks for the history lesson.
I was lucky when I ordered my Obermeyer barrel in that I wanted a .308 bore 5R with a 1/ 11.25 twist and he just happened to be turning out a run of them for the AMTU at the very time I called. My barrel was shipped to the riflebuilder (Terry Cross) within two weeks. This was about ten years ago, and I don't know what Boots might be making at the moment.

I was also lucky when I ordered my Bartlein. It was just prior to them becoming as popular as they are these days. I wanted a 6.5 bore 1/8 twist 5R and Frank shipped my barrel in about three months. Lucky? You bet!

My other 5R came from Border Barrels in Scotland. It was made by an internet aquaintence from SoDak named JR who just happened to be working for Border during the time that I wanted a 6.5 bore 1/8.5 twist 5R barrel made up for a Savage actioned switch barrel as a one-of-a-kind experiment. I was very lucky on this one as JR turned out the most well finished and one of the most accurate barrels that I've had the priviledge to own. This one took about six months which is fast when you consider the special work that was entailed combined with the international shipping.

Now the problem with the majority of these custom barrels for the M14 owner is that there are very few that can be ordered with an M14 profile and the other machining needed. They'll pretty much have to go out to your riflebuilder as a straight blank and be machined for the M14 after that. AFAIK there are only a few of the top custom barrel makers who will turn out a machined M14 barrel (Kreiger, Rock, ?).

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Old March 8th, 2010, 03:07 PM   #9
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You sure did get lucky! There is one other company making cut rifled barrels for the 14 it is Satern.

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Old March 8th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #10
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Angry For the Big $$$ for the digital angle gage...

from the Penn Tool Co. you can get 2 from Wixey or one of their suppliers.
http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html
They are $40 or less each. I've had one for a while now and they work great.
Bruce

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Old March 9th, 2010, 02:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
It is possible to purchase/obtain a barrel that when brought up to TDC will have the splines over or under rotated. You are now faced with a decision. Do you go with the barrel at TDC which will result in the attachments hanging off to one side. Or do you center the attachments and have a off to one side front sight which will result in having to cant. ?

This is starting to sound like a Steganogram, VG 9 will help us out. Art
Art I have nothing to add here everyone has pretty much covered the barreling exercise thoroughly.

But to your point about the Spline alignment to TDC....other than discarding or returning a barrel to the seller,,,,I would prefer spline alignment over any mechanically derived TDC index point....

it goes back to Mr McGrath's comment on using one's eyeball as the final arbiter of where you want/need to be

I would go with that.... to the extent that achieving proper spline alignment did not off-set the feed ramps at the breech to the point of non-functionality

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Old March 9th, 2010, 07:35 AM   #12
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Thumbs up Satern !

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82nd ABN View Post
You sure did get lucky! There is one other company making cut rifled barrels for the 14 it is Satern.
I'm happy to hear that Satern is making M14 barrels. They make fine barrels and it's good to know that another quality barrelmaker is jumping in to 'fight the good fight'.

While I haven't tried one of Satern's barrels (yet), I regularly use Satern's caliber-specific aluminum powder funnels. Outstanding workmanship. Once a handloader tries one he won't go back. A friend who lives in the Tidewater area of NC had a 6mmBR target rifle built on a Satern barrel last year. It shoots 'like a house on fire' according to him, and he doesn't throw out compliments readily.

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Old March 9th, 2010, 08:30 AM   #13
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I don't go by the spline alignment, unless the splines are off index and the barrel has to be returned to the manufacturer. Here's the reason why:

Even if the splines were perfectly done right, the flash suppressor or gas cylinder in the case of an M1 Garand can/will be off slightly in normal manufacturing tolerances. If the splines are a little off, but still in manufacturing tolerances and the FS or GC in the case of the M1 is also off in that direction, the adjustment of the sights will be affected more negatively.

There are two reasons for getting a barrel aligned as close to Top Dead Center as possible. The first is to ensure the gas port and gas system parts align where they are supposed to on either the Garand or M14. You actually have more leeway with that than you do with the other reason.

The second reason and I suggest is the most important is the alignment of the front sight blade to the rear sight. If the front sight blade isn't top dead center, then as you put elevation and windage clicks on - instead of the rounds hitting straight up and down and straight across side to side when you adjust the sights, they will move at an angle when you adjust sights. That really hurts your ability to adjust your sights to get the bullet to hit where you want it to go. For NM shooters, that could cost them the match when wind or light conditions change.

That's why I go off the base of the flash suppressor for the front sight on a M14 and the same area on the Garand gas cylinder. This, of course relies on the fact the front sight is straight, but that was the easiest part to get straight and perpendicular.

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Old March 9th, 2010, 07:33 PM   #14
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IMHO........if you're gonna do just one.........leave it to a pro with the proper equipment.

If, you can justify the $$$ for the correct tools........then, my all means it's doable (read and learn).

Remember, it's not just screw on the barrel (barrel vice and wrench). There is: TDC to worry about and getting the correct headspace. Additionally, you will probably have to use a pull through chamber reamer too (as most after market barrels are short chambered).

Aloha, Mark

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Old March 9th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #15
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One last thing. It is rather easy to screw up chambering a rifle if you don't have an experienced person standing there teaching you. If you screw up the barrel, you pay for it. If the Armorer screws up the barrel, he pays for it. Something to consider if you are adding an expensive barrel to your rifle.

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