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Opinions of bubbas grinding off of heelstamp on Norinco M14

This is a discussion on Opinions of bubbas grinding off of heelstamp on Norinco M14 within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by DudleyDR I don't know about all of the doom and gloom presented - maybe yes, maybe no, but the smart thing to ...


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Old April 14th, 2017, 03:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
I don't know about all of the doom and gloom presented - maybe yes, maybe no, but the smart thing to do is to avoid that rifle. In so doing you will avoid any of the bad news that may come with it.
That's just it- you can't trust an Internet Lawyer. Anyone with any experience knows the potential pitfalls so why screw up ?

As my sig now states, and I know how the bosses here feel, I may be paranoid-I'd rather be paranoid than a lounge lizard, so why take the chance ?

That is the scary thing for me about the gun culture of today. So many young people jumped in and with it the special little snowflakes with mountains of trust fund cash really treat weapons like "toys". They're serious when they say- "Oh here is my new toy guys !"

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Old April 14th, 2017, 03:09 PM   #32
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720 ILCS 5/24‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑5)
Sec. 24‑5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the importer's or manufacturer's serial number of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) A person who possesses any firearm upon which any such importer's or manufacturer's serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated commits a Class 3 felony.
(c) Nothing in this Section shall prevent a person from making repairs, replacement of parts, or other changes to a firearm if those repairs, replacement of parts, or changes cause the removal of the name of the maker, model, or other marks of identification other than the serial number on the firearm's frame or receiver.
(d) A prosecution for a violation of this Section may be commenced within 6 years after the commission of the offense.
(Source: P.A. 93‑906, eff. 8‑11‑04.)

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Old April 14th, 2017, 03:35 PM   #33
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I passed on the rifle. I did a little googling and read the same passage as below.

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Originally Posted by M14E2 View Post
720 ILCS 5/24‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑5)
Sec. 24‑5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the importer's or manufacturer's serial number of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) A person who possesses any firearm upon which any such importer's or manufacturer's serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated commits a Class 3 felony.
(c) Nothing in this Section shall prevent a person from making repairs, replacement of parts, or other changes to a firearm if those repairs, replacement of parts, or changes cause the removal of the name of the maker, model, or other marks of identification other than the serial number on the firearm's frame or receiver.
(d) A prosecution for a violation of this Section may be commenced within 6 years after the commission of the offense.
(Source: P.A. 93‑906, eff. 8‑11‑04.)
Thanks for all the advice guys. I just cannot believe someone would do that to a gun... I really do like the Norinco receivers with no markings but i want a legal one :)
E

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Old April 14th, 2017, 03:49 PM   #34
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Ive got a chinese M1A ,never had anything on the heel,only a engraved serial number on the left sife,does this make it illegal,bought it brand new in the 80's

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Old April 14th, 2017, 04:10 PM   #35
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Ive got a chinese M1A ,never had anything on the heel,only a engraved serial number on the left sife,does this make it illegal,bought it brand new in the 80's
Nothing said here means a hill of beans. If the Feds wantcha they gotcha. They will come up with something. The smart thing is not to test the waters, don't use the chicken feather to tickle the dragon's unmentionables, don't call a subarboreal ape a monkey, and stay off their radar.

I know you are asking a rhetorical firearm owners rights question, but seriously- don't go there. Or ask an NRA Lawyer a rhetorical question of what if, don't say "I've got..." say "I saw at a gun show, is this legal as that was the state of importation at the time and to what degree will a gun lobby attorney protect me, my umbrella policy, etc..."

Better to have (meaningless) voting rights and (extremely meaningful) gun rights than to be a lounge lizard.

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Old April 14th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #36
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Ive got a chinese M1A ,never had anything on the heel,only a engraved serial number on the left sife,does this make it illegal,bought it brand new in the 80's

I'm just trying to be genuinely honest having seen and dealt with alphabet agencies-and you did me right best I remember- we did some horse trading on receivers and the ones I got transferred in were nice. Before I decided to become a social outcast dropout, who to quote the boss here, "unfortunately sees a fed behind every tree", I taught economics 7 of my 10(or 10 of my 13- 3 to get MSc and Comps) year university career. This was at a military base, 3 Division 1, Carnegie Research 1 Universities. I specialized in micro and my dissertation was on the theory of formation, organized crime, warlords, gangs, etc.

The way a federal agency works is that if it doesn't show that it was in a deficit, it doesn't get it's full budget back. In 50 years of data, there was one agency under Ronald Reagan that consistently reported that they NEEDED LESS MONEY and RECEIVED LESS MONEY. Otherwise they take off their hats, say to Daddy House Member(all spending bills begin in House of Congress) we need you to take out some money those nice baby boomers manditorially contributed to social security for the last 60 or so years, and we need a bigger budget.

So the alphabet agencies make up boogeymen to justify that they need more money. The woods are lovely, dark and deep- but we need more money before the people can safely sleep. They don't deal with the wolves- they find pups and go after them. A wolf will turn on you, it will infiltrate the herd, the wolf is dangerous, so budget be darned- you create a boogeyman.

Watch a film released in the last few years- "Hollow Point"- it does a good job of showing your guns when the real wolves are allowed to run wild.

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Last edited by geardocVME2; April 14th, 2017 at 04:51 PM. Reason: I apologize for the typos, brain works faster than fingers.
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Old April 14th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #37
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Hello, I've been watching this post from the start, and I must say, "There sure are a bunch of chicken little(s) on this post".
That rifle is legal, it has its serial number. The above section 24-5, item C, states that.. it is permissible to remove makers info as long as it is not the serial number.....
Are there not companies out there that take the forged receivers of either a poly tech or norinco rifle and scrub the makers marks and restamp them with their own company's info/name???? I'm sure I've seen this in the PX: It started as a Poly Tech or Norinco, but now it is a _____ M14, you fill in the blank space with the company of your choice.
I may not be correct on this, but from were I stand, that rifle was not illegally altered. It retains its serial number. I would have bought it, for the price of a parts gun,(less than $500), heck yea.
Sorry if I ruffled some feathers with the chicken little remark. But, this is America, and I do have a right to state my opinion, Now, I'm going back to eating my pop corn...

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Old April 14th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #38
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Nevermind...my question has been sufficiently addressed.

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Old April 14th, 2017, 06:09 PM   #39
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Internet lawyer....you funny.

Don't believe anything I write. Do your own research.

Go for it if you want. Fix it, shoot it, enjoy....and when/if something comes up about it, just tell the cops that it's okay.

Tell them you read and interpreted the law yourself and are an expert in the interpretation and application of the law, it's fine, go away. Then let us all know how it works out.

The rule quoted is not the only governance behind this issue. Read all the ATF open letters and guidance. Those are pretty much taken as law these days. The ATF's opinions are the only ones that matter to a judge with these issues.

Just a scenario:
Cop says he caught you in the middle of removing "all" the markings off a receiver or rifle, and he stopped you just in time before you got to the serial number. In court he testifies/ testilies that he believed you had intent to remove all the numbers if he hadn't stopped you.
Who do you think the jury will believe? Someone that has a partially defaced gun that looks like this one, or the cop with a perfect record on the job for 20 years?

Maybe it is legal. Maybe I am wrong. Let's say I am wrong for sure and it is all doom and gloom. Do you want to take the chance?

I was going by the conversation I just had yesterday with the head marking guy at the ATF, Mark Pawielsky. He went through it again, my fourth time with three different agents....maker name, place made city and state, serial number, caliber, and "MODEL" designation....and then said, today the way things are, there is no give on these requirements, because it makes it too hard to track weapons used in crimes. If they don't have all this info, they are taking them off the streets.

Terry, yours is fine. JMHO because it came that way. But wouldn't hurt to add a model designation to it and caliber in case anything like my scenario above ever comes up.

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Last edited by ripsaw; April 14th, 2017 at 06:21 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2017, 06:39 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ripsaw View Post
Internet lawyer....you funny.

Don't believe anything I write. Do your own research.

Go for it if you want. Fix it, shoot it, enjoy....and when/if something comes up about it, just tell the cops that it's okay.

Tell them you read and interpreted the law yourself and are an expert in the interpretation and application of the law, it's fine, go away. Then let us all know how it works out.

The rule quoted is not the only governance behind this issue. Read all the ATF open letters and guidance. Those are pretty much taken as law these days. The ATF's opinions are the only ones that matter to a judge with these issues.

Just a scenario:
Cop says he caught you in the middle of removing "all" the markings off a receiver or rifle, and he stopped you just in time before you got to the serial number. In court he testifies/ testilies that he believed you had intent to remove all the numbers if he hadn't stopped you.
Who do you think the jury will believe? Someone that has a partially defaced gun that looks like this one, or the cop with a perfect record on the job for 20 years?

Maybe it is legal. Maybe I am wrong. Let's say I am wrong for sure and it is all doom and gloom. Do you want to take the chance?

I was going by the conversation I just had yesterday with the head marking guy at the ATF, Mark Pawielsky. He went through it again, my fourth time with three different agents....maker name, place made city and state, serial number, caliber, and "MODEL" designation....and then said, today the way things are, there is no give on these requirements, because it makes it too hard to track weapons used in crimes. If they don't have all this info, they are taking them off the streets.

Terry, yours is fine. JMHO because it came that way. But wouldn't hurt to add a model designation to it and caliber in case anything like my scenario above ever comes up.
I know you think I'm somehow sassing you, but you could not have stated it better.

I don't know how our circuits got crossed, but I meant you no disrespect, and what I refer to is the fact there are guys so hungry for that new toy they'll take the risk and when they get pulled over from the firing range their behind is grass, and telling them "Norinco and their brother company built them guns ain't going to do it."

It automatically becomes a federal beef, and you pay a retainer on those and then a couple hundred an hour, a cheap one that is just a "deal cutter"- is a $50k retainer. If there are more people in the car, whoopee ! CONSPIRACY CHARGES LOOKIN' GOOD HERE.

And that $51k gun becomes a $201k gun upon the retainer being altered to proving no conspiracy exists.

The Internet lawyers can pop their popcorn. You don't mess with the G.

I apologize, but you read me wrong. No disrespect intended.

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Old April 14th, 2017, 06:48 PM   #41
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A local gunstore here is selling a M1917 rifle that was re imported by CAI. CAI ground off the serial number and stenciled it on the side of the receiver. It has the re import mark on the barrel. And here in oregon the firearm is sold with the registration in your name. So, I don't know how the store was able to sell it or buy it with the Manufactures name gone let alone resell it.

BTW he was asking way to much for that rifle at $700.

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Old April 14th, 2017, 06:55 PM   #42
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Oh no, we're cool. I really meant what I wrote ,it was funny and make me chuckle reading it, No problem. I didn't think you were flogging me.

I think your point of view and opinion on this one is the correct way to look at it too. No sense taking chances, when there is not a lot to be gained.....or even if there is a lot to be gained. You will always lose coming up against the man. Like the my ancestral forefathers said. .......Too dang many of them !.......I am 5/8 Indian.

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Old April 14th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #43
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I guess the point is the SN is intact - but the model info on the heel is gone. Since that is not an indication of the importer there should be the importers name some other place on the rifle. If so what is it - who imported it?

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Old April 14th, 2017, 08:42 PM   #44
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I think some of you guys are confusing Serial Numbers with Manufacturer Markings or Importer Markings.

Removing Serial Numbers is bad.

Removing Manufacturers markings maybe not so bad depending on your state laws.

Possessing a Firearms that has had the Manufacturers markings removed by someone else prior to your possession may not be so bad depending on your state laws.

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Old April 15th, 2017, 02:55 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M14E2 View Post
720 ILCS 5/24‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑5)
Sec. 24‑5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the importer's or manufacturer's serial number of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) A person who possesses any firearm upon which any such importer's or manufacturer's serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated commits a Class 3 felony.
(c) Nothing in this Section shall prevent a person from making repairs, replacement of parts, or other changes to a firearm if those repairs, replacement of parts, or changes cause the removal of the name of the maker, model, or other marks of identification other than the serial number on the firearm's frame or receiver.
(d) A prosecution for a violation of this Section may be commenced within 6 years after the commission of the offense.
(Source: P.A. 93‑906, eff. 8‑11‑04.)
Emphasis added....

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