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Getting frequent double shots

This is a discussion on Getting frequent double shots within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Yep the recoil is pulling your finger off the trigger as you're trying to pull the trigger rearward kind of like bump firing, happens to ...


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Old March 25th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #16
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Yep the recoil is pulling your finger off the trigger as you're trying to pull the trigger rearward kind of like bump firing, happens to me I hate it .

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Old March 26th, 2017, 06:57 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Badger5th View Post
...
However when I deliberately pulled the trigger through for more follow through the doubles started again.
...
------------------------
I don't understand what you are doing for 'more follow through'.

These are MY recommendations about trigger control and 'follow through'

These actions will cure the problem, unless it's a mechanical issue with the trigger.

1) Have a firm grip on the stock with your trigger hand and consciously HOLD the trigger fully rearward, on each shot until recoil is complete. Then fully release the trigger.
Don't use delicate trigger pressure trying to 'just touch it off' - pull the trigger and HOLD it.

2) Don't try for a 'surprise' trigger break, Learn how much pressure you can apply w/o firing. The trigger should only release when you WANT it to and when you are prepared for it to fire. If the trigger break is a 'surprise' you can't really 'follow through' because you're not fully expecting it!

3) Continue to pull the rifle butt securely against your shoulder until recoil is complete.

4) And for accuracy and knowing how if sight adjustment is needed - be sure to really SEE where the front sight (or scope) is aimed when the shot fires.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

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Old March 26th, 2017, 07:48 AM   #18
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I've been shooting my rifle for 20 years without doubles, but I'm having this issue now.

Barring operator error, what mechanical reasons could be causing this? I took the trigger group apart and everything looks fine. The only thing I'm not sure about is the sear that's pinned to the trigger; it's kind of wobbly... but I don't know if that's normal or not.

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Old March 26th, 2017, 08:38 AM   #19
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# 2 in jay's post is key, my whole life I've been told squeeze the trigger wait for the bang don't jerk the trigger ,kind of just opposite with these rifles .

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Old March 26th, 2017, 10:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by gunslinger686 View Post
...
my whole life I've been told squeeze the trigger wait for the bang don't jerk the trigger ...
---------
A little more info about trigger control, squeezing, and surprises.

I think the words 'surprise trigger break' have caused problems for many people for a long time - mainly because we don't have a better word to use.

I think everyone will agree that the gun shouldn't fire unless you WANT it to. And to me, that means that the trigger breaking shouldn't be a 'surprise'. Now you might not know 'precisely when' the trigger will break - but it happens in that short time interval when you want to fire. And the trigger needs to be reliable so that it won't fire if you let-up on the pressure.

I don't recommend jerking the trigger or other abrupt actions - a controlled squeeze is fine but you need to know the trigger well enough to judge how much pressure can be applied w/o it breaking. And you need to be fully ready for it to break as 'firing pressure' is applied - no surprises! When the trigger does break you're ready for it and just complete the squeeze by pulling the trigger fully rearward and holding it.

When I try someone else's rifle, I always dry-fire a few times to learn about the trigger. And with a 22 rimfire (that shouldn't be dry-fired) I'll just shoot into the berm while concentrating on the trigger pull.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

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Old March 26th, 2017, 10:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post

I think the words 'surprise trigger break' have caused problems for many people for a long time - mainly because we don't have a better word to use.
Yeah, the "surprise" is a double....

I agree with you it's suposed to be a steady increase in pressure with complete follow though. I advocate dry fire practice with taking up the slack in the 1st stage, holding exercises maintaining front sight focus and then pulling through the 2nd stage.

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Old March 26th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #22
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After seeing all these posts come up, I am highly suspicious of the newer SAI so-called NM trigger job/set-up. This happened to me too. The only M1A I've ever had trouble with, and personally experienced firing doubles with, was my brand new 2017 National Match. I've never had this problem with my Socom 16 or my Scout Squad, despite running the Scout and Socom for some time with a variety of parts mods, trigger jobs, different stocks, etc etc. I took all three rifles to the range on the same day, on more than one occasion, firing them all with the same technique off the bench, with the same ammo. And the National Match, despite having what felt like a HEAVIER take-up and grittier trigger pull than my Socom or Scout, was the only rifle that would give me occasional doubles, no matter how I snugged the stock into my shoulder or how I pulled the trigger. The doubles seemed to increase in frequency the more rounds I put through the gun, and it never ran a triple. On my third range trip with it, I had to load singles into the mag while testing ammo.

I was OVER it. I went home and installed USGI and other parts into the Nat Match's trigger group, and all has been perfect after that. No more doubles, no more nonsense about wondering whether I was holding the gun wrong or somehow milking the trigger wrong. I was not bouncing it off my shoulder or failing to follow through, with any of the three rifles, during any session that I experienced the doubles from the NM. I didn't suddenly "forget" how to shoot an M1A the minute I set down my Scout or Socom and picked up my Nat Match. I was shooting them off the same rest, at the same target, in the same manner, to generate groups while testing ammo and other mods to the guns.

I suspect the newer NM "trigger jobs" in these newer SAI rifles might result in quite poor contact/reset between the hammer hooks/sear, or some other malady, induced by the NM trigger "upgrade" we pay for when we buy a new SAI with a "NM trigger" LOL!!!!!! I should probably go pull the offending parts out of the ziplock baggie of SAI reject parts I have floating around up in one of my closets, and have a closer look to see what the SAI shop had monkeyed with....I wonder if the SAI parts are even too soft to hold a proper edge, or to stand up to any polishing or maintain angles put to the sear or hammer hooks by SAI to make the trigger group an "NM" trigger group....Hmmmm....And I don't think it is simply a lighter trigger break weight.....my Socom had, and still has, a lighter trigger break than my offending NM had with the SAI NM Trigger Job parts in it.....

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Old March 26th, 2017, 06:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MGSchindel View Post
After seeing all these posts come up, I am highly suspicious of the newer SAI so-called NM trigger job/set-up. This happened to me too. The only M1A I've ever had trouble with, and personally experienced firing doubles with, was my brand new 2017 National Match. I've never had this problem with my Socom 16 or my Scout Squad, despite running the Scout and Socom for some time with a variety of parts mods, trigger jobs, different stocks, etc etc. I took all three rifles to the range on the same day, on more than one occasion, firing them all with the same technique off the bench, with the same ammo. And the National Match, despite having what felt like a HEAVIER take-up and grittier trigger pull than my Socom or Scout, was the only rifle that would give me occasional doubles, no matter how I snugged the stock into my shoulder or how I pulled the trigger. The doubles seemed to increase in frequency the more rounds I put through the gun, and it never ran a triple. On my third range trip with it, I had to load singles into the mag while testing ammo.

I was OVER it. I went home and installed USGI and other parts into the Nat Match's trigger group, and all has been perfect after that. No more doubles, no more nonsense about wondering whether I was holding the gun wrong or somehow milking the trigger wrong. I was not bouncing it off my shoulder or failing to follow through, with any of the three rifles, during any session that I experienced the doubles from the NM. I didn't suddenly "forget" how to shoot an M1A the minute I set down my Scout or Socom and picked up my Nat Match. I was shooting them off the same rest, at the same target, in the same manner, to generate groups while testing ammo and other mods to the guns.

I suspect the newer NM "trigger jobs" in these newer SAI rifles might result in quite poor contact/reset between the hammer hooks/sear, or some other malady, induced by the NM trigger "upgrade" we pay for when we buy a new SAI with a "NM trigger" LOL!!!!!! I should probably go pull the offending parts out of the ziplock baggie of SAI reject parts I have floating around up in one of my closets, and have a closer look to see what the SAI shop had monkeyed with....I wonder if the SAI parts are even too soft to hold a proper edge, or to stand up to any polishing or maintain angles put to the sear or hammer hooks by SAI to make the trigger group an "NM" trigger group....Hmmmm....And I don't think it is simply a lighter trigger break weight.....my Socom had, and still has, a lighter trigger break than my offending NM had with the SAI NM Trigger Job parts in it.....
What specific SAI parts did you replace with USGI that fixed your situation?

Regards,
Badger

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Old March 26th, 2017, 08:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buelligan View Post
I've been shooting my rifle for 20 years without doubles, but I'm having this issue now.

Barring operator error, what mechanical reasons could be causing this? I took the trigger group apart and everything looks fine. The only thing I'm not sure about is the sear that's pinned to the trigger; it's kind of wobbly... but I don't know if that's normal or not.

The rear hammer hooks need to engage the sear firmly when the hammer recocks. If there is too much play in the sear, the hammer hooks could slip off and the rifle will fire again.

Triggers with sears are only about $20 from Fulton Armory and others.

Thanks from Buelligan
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Old March 27th, 2017, 08:52 AM   #25
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Barring operator error, what mechanical reasons could be causing this?
It IS operator error. Jay is right--all you need to do is grip the stock tightly with your trigger hand. I started getting doubles shooting an M1 one day (after many years of shooting it) and was freaked about it until someone got me squared away on how to hold the rifle.

Tim

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Old March 27th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
------------------------
I don't understand what you are doing for 'more follow through'.

These are MY recommendations about trigger control and 'follow through'

These actions will cure the problem, unless it's a mechanical issue with the trigger.

1) Have a firm grip on the stock with your trigger hand and consciously HOLD the trigger fully rearward, on each shot until recoil is complete. Then fully release the trigger.
Don't use delicate trigger pressure trying to 'just touch it off' - pull the trigger and HOLD it.

2) Don't try for a 'surprise' trigger break, Learn how much pressure you can apply w/o firing. The trigger should only release when you WANT it to and when you are prepared for it to fire. If the trigger break is a 'surprise' you can't really 'follow through' because you're not fully expecting it!

3) Continue to pull the rifle butt securely against your shoulder until recoil is complete.

4) And for accuracy and knowing how if sight adjustment is needed - be sure to really SEE where the front sight (or scope) is aimed when the shot fires.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Jay,

Every time this has happened it has been when shooting from a bench with a front rest; never from a traditional shooting position. I have (an apparently bad) habit of not holding the wrist of the stock firmly with my shooting hand when bench shooting. That combined with the natural recoil of the rifle seems to be throwing the trigger back onto my shooting finger causing a bump fire double. I think that's it.

I have not owned a high-power semi auto since I got rid of my Garand (regrets...) over 20 years ago. Nothing more powerful than a 223 since then till I got my M1A. Never happened with any 223 semi I've owned. I do recall the same issue with my grand but not as frequently as with my M1A now.

Regards,
Bill

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Old March 27th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by KurtC View Post
The rear hammer hooks need to engage the sear firmly when the hammer recocks. If there is too much play in the sear, the hammer hooks could slip off and the rifle will fire again.

Triggers with sears are only about $20 from Fulton Armory and others.
----------------------
The trigger operation can be seen quite well with the trigger group removed from the rifle.

Try using the trigger guard as a lever to cock the hammer and to control its movement when the hammer is released.

1) With the hammer uncocked, hold the trigger fully rearward and push the hammer backwards so the end of the rear hooks move across the face of the triangle 'sear' and the top of the rear hooks are 'caught' under the bottom of the sear. That operation does the 'disconnector' function.
While still holding the trigger rearward try to wiggle the sear, trigger and hammer - the hammer should remain caught under the sear. If something wiggles enough to release the hammer, then that's bad.

2) Now, slowly allow the trigger to move forward. The rear hammer hooks will be released from the sear, but the hammer MUST BE CAUGHT by the front hammer hooks and what I call the 'sear lugs' on the trigger. I call that operation the 'handoff' from the disconnector to the sear. If the hammer is not caught during the handoff, that's bad.

3) Let the trigger move fully forward and see how the engagement of the front hooks and the 'sear lugs' on the trigger increases.

4) Carefully pull the trigger through the 1st stage and see how the front hook engagement decreases. The 1st stage ends when the front face of the triangle 'sear' gizmo makes contact with the rear hammer hooks - and ideally both hooks should make contact at the same time. At that point there is very little sear engagement between the front hooks and the 'sears lugs' and that is where the 2nd stage begins.

The purpose of 'holding the trigger fully rearward during recoil' is to make certain that the rear hammer hooks remain UNDER the bottom of the triangle gizmo. When the violent motion of recoil is finished, then allow the trigger to move forward for the handoff.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

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Old March 27th, 2017, 05:57 PM   #28
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Think,there must be a harder way,lol

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Old March 27th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #29
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What specific SAI parts did you replace with USGI that fixed your situation?

Regards,
Badger
I didn't replace them one at a time and test in between, so I can't narrow it down to any one part, but I installed a NOS USGI Garand trigger and sear, NOS USGI HRA hammer, USGI hammer plunger, USGI hammer and trigger pins, USGI safety spring, and installed a Tubbs hammer spring, all of which I had fortunately bought from Treeline in prior months, as intended spares. I had no idea if the NOS parts would even fit in the SAI trigger group when I started the swap, but I gave it a shot and the install and function check went fine. I then shot lots of 3 and 5 round groups with the gun all last weekend after the trigger group parts swap, while testing different gas pistons in the gun. No more doubles whatsoever off the bench, and the trigger pull feels BETTER now than it did from the factory with the SAI NM trigger job/parts. Maybe the Tubbs spring has a hand in that?

Like everything else with these guns, I never know exactly WHY certain things work or don't work in them, but when I try something and it works for me, I go with it. In my case, I know I was not bump-firing my NM, and from my experience, I would tell folks to just go ahead and install decent hardened steel NOS trigger and hammer components in any newer SAI rifle. How can it possibly hurt you to use better parts anyway? Keep the cheapo cast MIM parts for your spares bin. But that's just me and the last three builds I've done on newer SAI rifles. I'm not interested in spending half an hour packing up all my gear, driving an hour+ all the way out to the rifle range, paying the range fee, spending 20 minutes getting set up, putting out my targets, burning through over $100 worth of match ammo, and then getting the honor of packing up all my junk, and driving an hour+ home disgusted with my tail between my legs, to clean a dysfunctional rifle that made me miserable all day........just so SAI can save $30 and get over on me by putting cheap, soft MIM parts in their $1900 "national match professionally tuned" guns. But maybe other folks feel differently. No offense to anyone that works at Springfield or has great luck running SAI parts in their rifles. We all need to do what helps us sleep at night, and makes our guns work for us. These rifles all, on an individual basis, seem to respond differently to different mods. YMMV.

Or maybe the USGI parts create a magnetic mojo forcefield of vintage mil-spec goodness, that makes me hold the rifle differently when the USGI parts are in there.....I can live with that, too.

I'll remind folks of the Gen4 Glock roll-out, and when Glock switched to improperly designed recoil springs and total junk new MIM extractors. After the first 20,000 victims with the new Gen4 pistols contacted Glock to explore why their brand new guns had all sorts of odd cycling issues and failures, Glock just told everyone automatically that they were suddenly limp-wristing the guns, firing them all wrong, and using bad ammo LOL!!!!! That is, until they went through three or four variations of modified extractors and recoil spring assemblies trying desperately to fix the problems they said were shooter errors. And they still can't make things run 100% with the new mim parts and revised design "improvements" they had implemented to cut costs and corners. Sorry if I digressed...But if your Glock Gen2 shoots fine for you for years, but your Gen4 won't cycle for you at all for love nor money, right longside your Gen2 on the same day with the same ammo...it's probably the gun LOL!!!!!

Oh yeah, if you ARE bouncing your rifle off your shoulder and back forward into your trigger finger...don't do that! LOL!

Cheers!

Thanks from Badger5th

Last edited by MGSchindel; March 27th, 2017 at 07:00 PM.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 08:29 PM   #30
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No trigger adjustments. It's a SA loaded which comes with a NM trigger job.
Yah, the 'NM trigger job' IS the trigger adjustment. It's not you, it's the rifle. Call Springfield. You got a crap trigger job.

The trigger design of the M1 was never particularly robust, and for years people have attributed doubles to 'milking', but the real answer is that a properly functioning trigger should not double, no matter what you do to it. It should not require the shooter to use it in a certain way for it to function correctly.

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