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Maybe a weird question about the M1A

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Old March 17th, 2017, 07:34 AM   #1
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Maybe a weird question about the M1A

So I am trying to get my new optic dialed in - but am running into an issue that APPEARS to be that the mount (the GDI G1-OSM) with the scope on it has a slight cant downward towards the barrel - which would explain why when i was trying to dial it in at 50 yards - I had to move the reticle up over and over and over again to get it close to zero.

My thought pattern on how to determine this is as follows:
I would like to figure out a way to put a short level on the rifle to get it to as dead center level as possible... so that then i can put another level on the mount and figure out how bad the angle is, and use the front elevation adjuster to bring it to dead center level, then remount the scope and re-zero it.

The question I have is:
Does Springfield armory ensure that the rail piece on the Scout is precision level before shipping? That is - can I use that to establish "level" for the rifle, to then compare a level / judge the GDI mount's angle with?

Can I trust the SAI mount's precision enough to do this sort of root cause analysis?

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Old March 17th, 2017, 07:39 AM   #2
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http://www.brownells.com/items/rifle-scope-level.aspx
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/scope-level
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?...homerun_portal

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Old March 17th, 2017, 07:40 AM   #3
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Take a straight edge something and hold it on you mount, use a long one if you have something 4-5 feet long. As far as the barrel mount goes I would assume its level but then again you know what assuming does.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Longmire View Post
So I am trying to get my new optic dialed in - but am running into an issue that APPEARS to be that the mount (the GDI G1-OSM) with the scope on it has a slight cant downward towards the barrel - which would explain why when i was trying to dial it in at 50 yards - I had to move the reticle up over and over and over again to get it close to zero.

My thought pattern on how to determine this is as follows:
I would like to figure out a way to put a short level on the rifle to get it to as dead center level as possible... so that then i can put another level on the mount and figure out how bad the angle is, and use the front elevation adjuster to bring it to dead center level, then remount the scope and re-zero it.

The question I have is:
Does Springfield armory ensure that the rail piece on the Scout is precision level before shipping? That is - can I use that to establish "level" for the rifle, to then compare a level / judge the GDI mount's angle with?

Can I trust the SAI mount's precision enough to do this sort of root cause analysis?
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This might sound weird but it works.

Go get a long wooden dowel that fits the barrel or the flash hider.

Put a small level on it right at the end of the barrel. Then put a level on the mount without the scope on it.

First be sure both levels agree on a flat surface.

That will give you a very close idea if your mount is canted down.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 08:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Puccini View Post
__________________________________________________ _______________

This might sound weird but it works.

Go get a long wooden dowel that fits the barrel or the flash hider.

Put a small level on it right at the end of the barrel. Then put a level on the mount without the scope on it.

First be sure both levels agree on a flat surface.

That will give you a very close idea if your mount is canted down.
With regards to the OP and this response. I am not sure how you could determine the true level of an M1A scout bore axis.

You could put something into the bore as a reference. Whatever you put in the barrel would have to be an interference fit and perfectly straight to begin with. A short slightly oversized (5/16") hardwood dowel might work but you would have to drive it into the rifling at least a couple of inches to get it parallel with the bore. Then attach the line level to that. Once that is done you would then have to somehow get the force fitted dowel out of the bore.

I know with a full length 22" M1A barrel there is plenty of space on the barrel that you could attach the line level. As long as that section of the barrel has no taper that would work. That whole concept may be moot since we are talking about an 18" scout barrel.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 08:06 AM   #6
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Most folks don't like to hear it, but the M14 was not designed to be zeroed POA/POI at close range with magnified optics. Even the cherished M21 started out with a 300 meter zero. Anything closer, you just aim lower.

50 meters is usually too close. 100 meters often doesn't work with high powered scopes.

1x red dot optics are different, they have more range of adjustment.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #7
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Actually this isn't the type of level I need - I need a pitch level, not a roll level. Does that makes sense? the mount appears to be canted, pitched, slightly downward. It's hard to see with the eye - but I do believe it is there, and the zeroing in issues seem to confirm it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puccini View Post
__________________________________________________ _______________

This might sound weird but it works.

Go get a long wooden dowel that fits the barrel or the flash hider.

Put a small level on it right at the end of the barrel. Then put a level on the mount without the scope on it.

First be sure both levels agree on a flat surface.

That will give you a very close idea if your mount is canted down.
That really doesn't sound any weirder than what I was thinking - and it is more based off the barrel which has to be "level" inside.

So a .25 would be too small... hmm,... I'll stop at Home Depot and see what I can find that might be closer but not too big like the .375.
Unfortunately I can't find any info on internal bore size of the muzzle brake on the Scout, so I can't determine what dowel size that might be, and it might look awkward walking into Home Depot with my rifle.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #8
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So yeah I just called SAI and they said they check every rifle to ensure the forward mount is perfectly level (and they gave me the muzzle break internal bore diameter)... so I think I'll give both methods a go tonight before hitting the range again tomorrow.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #9
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You can use a 0.300" O.D. rod bore gage normally used to measure bore and suppressor I.D. concentricity. It should be a relatively true fit to the bore and stiff enough to use as a base for a level.

SAI doesn't seem to be able to guarantee that their flash suppressor exit bores are concentric to the rifle's bore, so who is doing the checking and who signs off on it as a supervisor. "Inquiring minds want to know."

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Old March 17th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
You can use a 0.300" O.D. rod bore gage normally used to measure bore and suppressor I.D. concentricity. It should be a relatively true fit to the bore and stiff enough to use as a base for a level.

SAI doesn't seem to be able to guarantee that their flash suppressor exit bores are concentric to the rifle's bore, so who is doing the checking and who signs off on it as a supervisor. "Inquiring minds want to know."
Yeah SAI actually said they recommended using their rail platform as the "leveled" baseline rather than the barrel concept. They recommended the barrel method only for confirmation / secondary testing.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #11
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Is it possible that since you are sighting in at such a short range that your crosshairs are aiming at the (apparent) bullet drop rather than the (apparent) bullet rise and you should run your adjustments the other way?

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Old March 17th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #12
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I had a similar issue with my 2012 Scout's forward rail.

Ran out of up on the scope.

The mount was about 1/8th of an inch too far back towards the receiver where the barrel slopes a bit.

I gave up on the forward mount and removed it, then went with a conventional mount.

The LER scope was moved to a Ruger Gunsite Scout where it works fine.

There are two set screws in the top of the mount that may be for leveling, not sure though.

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Old March 18th, 2017, 06:07 AM   #13
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WaltL said:
Quote:
Actually this isn't the type of level I need - I need a pitch level, not a roll level. Does that makes sense?
No, it doesn't make sense. Please enlighten us.

Regardless of your system of measuring angles, a bore sighter should get your first shot into the black at 50 yards (I use a standard 50 pistol repair center) while keeping the crosshairs close to the mid-range of adjustment. If that gives you no joy, then I recommend that you use a machinists level to compare the bottom of the receiver to the top of the scope base.

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Old March 18th, 2017, 06:20 AM   #14
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Glad it is raining here today and I had the opportunity to read this, as its one of my favorite subjects!


Very respectfully,
Buck


Last edited by Buckxo01; March 20th, 2017 at 01:14 PM.
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Old March 18th, 2017, 06:22 AM   #15
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WaltL said:

No, it doesn't make sense. Please enlighten us.

Regardless of your system of measuring angles, a bore sighter should get your first shot into the black at 50 yards (I use a standard 50 pistol repair center) while keeping the crosshairs close to the mid-range of adjustment. If that gives you no joy, then I recommend that you use a machinists level to compare the bottom of the receiver to the top of the scope base.
Yes!

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