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Maybe a weird question about the M1A

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Old March 20th, 2017, 01:12 PM   #16
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Was the problem fixed?

V/R
Buck

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Old March 20th, 2017, 01:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter86314 View Post
WaltL said:

No, it doesn't make sense. Please enlighten us.

Regardless of your system of measuring angles, a bore sighter should get your first shot into the black at 50 yards (I use a standard 50 pistol repair center) while keeping the crosshairs close to the mid-range of adjustment. If that gives you no joy, then I recommend that you use a machinists level to compare the bottom of the receiver to the top of the scope base.
Roll = raising / turning to your left or right = windage
Pitch = lift up or down = elevation

Sorry - I work in the aviation industry and their nomenclature and vernacular have gotten into my daily terminology it seems.

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Was the problem fixed?

V/R
Buck
Yes and no...
It seems I fixed the pitch / elevation problem nearly perfectly. I had to make one small tweak at the range and feel I'm VERY close to dead on there (I may need to bring it up about 1/8 of a turn)... but then it turned out my roll / windage was all FUBAR... and I do mean FUBAR. Once got that locked in I did better, but still wasn't able to quite feel happy with the zeroing within the time window I had to shoot (I ran up against the clock again unfortunately).

This was 20 shots of XM80 at 50 yards...




This was 20 shots of XM80 at 100 yards:


I am generally displeased with myself with this. Maybe I'm too hard on myself given I haven't handled a rifle in 27 years, etc... but I expected a bit better / steadier hand from myself in this. I know I'm not using a bipod or a gun carrier, just the wierd block thing they have at the range, but I know this can't be all put the gun / the optic by any means... it has to be significant % of user error somewhere in the mix. Inexperience or flinching or something.

One big issue I'm having is the cheek weld problem. I'm having to use a hand towel wrapped in a tight cylinder in an athletic bandage then wrapped around the stock to get the necessary elevation - and it unfortunately moves a little still. Hence my other question in this subforum about a fabricated one that gives me the rise I need, even if it is custom made.

That being said - I am going to get it fixed / bore sighted tomorrow or Wednesday, then test / re-zero @ 25 yards at the indoor range, then next chance I get I'll take it back out to confirm 50, then 100.

THEN I'll test the hunting rounds. Still haven't been willing to do that yet until I get this issue worked out once and for all. No reason to blow $1.70-2.15 / round when I haven't even zeroed the gorramn thing properly yet.

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Old March 20th, 2017, 02:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Walt Longmire View Post
One big issue I'm having is the cheek weld problem. I'm having to use a hand towel wrapped in a tight cylinder in an athletic bandage then wrapped around the stock to get the necessary elevation - and it unfortunately moves a little still. Hence my other question in this subforum about a fabricated one that gives me the rise I need, even if it is custom made.
Well.

I wouldn't be displeased, there are folks out there that don't shoot half as well as this.

I've read thousand of zero targets in the Army, from the Bushmaster M242 down to the M16/M4 series over 26 years. I don't know your rifle setup, as you've not discussed that yet. However, your top target picture has nice, tight groups, and would expect to see those types of "groups" (don't know your zero method either) from a 7.62 semiauto rifle fired from a supported firing position, with optics and you need just a small amount of adjustment for M80 ball 250 meter zero, assuming you want a 250 meter zero.

The second picture tells me you either kept changing you sight picture through the optics, or you have an optics issue with the mount, scope or rings being slightly loose/improperly installed. However, after your statement above and the fact you have a post about wanting advice for a 2+ inch lace up riser, I think you are changing your sight picture because you can't get a good check to stock weld that is consistent.

For what it's worth, I use the M1 Garand leather cheek pads on a three of my M1A and a BM-59 (it's comfortable on the BM-59 for me, but no optics on it, duh). It may or may not work for you. I really like mine because I can feel the exact spot to place my cheek each time, on the plain wood I can't. It does raise my cheek higher but these were designed for the M1D for a left offset due to the M1D's scope mount. I can't remember the leather company I buy these from but here is a link to one at the price I always pay: https://www.buffaloarms.com/leather-...rked-pcl42rhus

Hope you get it worked out!

V/R
Buck

Forgot to mention those cheek pads come with leather lace, I always break the leather try to get it tight. They are also designed to put two wood screws into the stock to hold them. I don't screw mine in, and I use the boot laces from my desert tan military boots; 550 cord work too. You can get them super tight with either of them and there is no need for the screws being plunged into my nice walnut...

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Old March 20th, 2017, 07:36 PM   #19
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It seems to me that you are about .5" high at 50 yards and 1" low at 100 yards. If I'm backwards on this somebody correct me, but shouldn't you be hitting about 2" high at 100yards. And that would put you back on target at 200 yards. (knowing that you scope is sitting higher than typical, I'm guessing). And this goes back to what I mentioned earlier, that you're running the adjustment the wrong way and crossing the bullets path on the downward path.


Last edited by Redneck Yankee; March 21st, 2017 at 05:06 AM.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:58 AM   #20
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Walt, I dig your aviation terminology, especially as it applies to the misalignment of your scope base.

About your field expedient cheek piece. Very creative, tho it sounds too thick. I use pieces of 1/8" thick insole material (new) taped onto my stock with fractal camo duck tape. You can hardly see it!

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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:20 AM   #21
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Ok Walt that whole Roll Pitch thing makes perfect sense now that you splained it to me lol. I think Buckxo01 is correct you improvised cheek rest is messing with your consistency and if I may say so you seem to expect a lot out of yourself so take a deep breath and enjoy the trip ,getting there is half the fun as they say .

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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:51 AM   #22
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Okay - so here's the setup so there is some context to this question / ongoing issue with the mount, and the seemingly very high cheek weld question...



Sadly - because of where the scope has to sit to get proper eye relief, it cannot be moved forward, so unless there is a reliable, solid, low rise mount with ACOG type rear extension,... I can't get it any lower. I can change out their mount to like an #17 QD mount, but that doesn't change the elevation one bit.

My next step is to try taking it to the indoor range and laser bore sight it after letting the gunsmith have at it to do their magic to confirm "Pitch" and "Roll" and get it dialed in that way for me. Hopefully they can do it WITH the optic on in case it / it's weight is somehow throwing things off, which I am suspecting MIGHT be a factor.

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Old March 21st, 2017, 10:31 AM   #23
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What scope?

V/R
Buck

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Old March 21st, 2017, 10:46 AM   #24
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Walt, what you need for that is a cheeks rest...
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Old March 21st, 2017, 11:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckxo01 View Post
What scope?

V/R
Buck
ATN X-Sight II 5-20

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Old March 21st, 2017, 11:43 AM   #26
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Walt, what you need for that is a cheeks rest...
I bet I could DEFINITELY hit an elk with that thing.
Won't be any elk left when I do,...
But I'd hit it!

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Old March 21st, 2017, 05:55 PM   #27
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Walt, looks like you have to come up 2" or more to line up with the center of your scope. If you wanted to redneck it you could get a short piece of 2x2 and wittle out one side of the block to fit the top of the stock and round over the top then mount it with some heavy duty duck tape to try the fit. Shame to do that to that pretty stock but would may be help with the accuracy. Buckxo01 identified the problem with the stock weld causing POI change. Having never shot M80, can't say but I've read that it isn't the most accurate ammo available. What does Federal GMM or American Eagle OTM do?

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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:07 PM   #28
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You'll hit an elk at 300M with it.

I've always liked ATN equipment and have one of their PVS-14 Gen 2.

I was reading about your scope, and I've no experience with the digital scopes. However it reminds me of my NVRS, which in no way works as yours does.

How did the one shot zero function work for you?

After seeing the setup you have, you have no way to get a good jaw to stock weld much less a cheek weld. There were various different risers mentioned, however my personal opinion is that you won't find an off the self variety.

One suggestion I offer is this: Do you have a good shoe repair shop that has been in business for a long time near you? If you do, chances are that there is a master craftsman there that could make you a custom one for next to nothing out of leather or nylon, and they would have the correct machines that would sew good leather. My personal preference would be to show them a picture of the the M1C/M1D Garand cheek pad and they could make you the same thing at any height you want and it would probably not be more than $30. You could buy one of the "US" embossed ones, take it to them, and I guarantee they could rework it to the height you need. I put the Garand leather cheek pads on mine because I like the leather, and it functions for my needs. Also, my wife is a licensed Veterinarian, but her side job that she's been doing since she was a little girl is as a seamstress. She has sewn all my BDU's/DCU's/ACU's/Class A/Blues/ASU uniforms and repaired many of my thick cordura nylon accoutrements over the 26 years I was in the US Army. If you could find a good seamstress, she/he should easily be able to custom make one at the height you need out of 600 cordura nylon or suitable material of your choice, and it shouldn't cost you much. Have her put a zipper in the stuffing area so you can add/or subtract padding as needed.

There a couple of pennies of advice.

Very respectfully,
Buck

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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:40 PM   #29
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Based on the targets provided, it seems to be zeroed pretty well to me. If it's within 1 MOA at 100 yards, no amount of shooting at 25 or 50 yards is likely to improve the current zero.

Without a solid cheek-to-rifle interface, any additional testing is likely a complete waste of time and ammo.

Zeroing it the N-th degree with one particular cartridge won't mean that any of your potential hunting rounds will impact at the same point....and they don't need to.

I zeroed a bolt action rifle last weekend. I used the old-school look down the bore and line up the reticle method (which obviously doesn't work with the M1A), at 50 yards, and two rounds later, I was ready for 100 yards. After two additional rounds, I was done zero-ing and shooting groups to evaluate handloads.

What are the diameters of the above targets?

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Old Yesterday, 05:25 AM   #30
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Can definitely see where goose necking up to the optic could create accuracy concerns.
More going on there besides a tilt or pitch issue.

Just me, but i'd lose that butt pad, get an ARMs18 mount and move that ATN 2 inches forward
and a solid inch downward. The goose necking would then be forward as it should be, not upward.
That's just my opinion tho.

I do like the ATN and been considering one so glad you are sharing. Thanks.
Please update what eventually works out.

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