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First round from magazine a flyer

This is a discussion on First round from magazine a flyer within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Man this is a good thread for guys like me learning the nuances of m14 type rifle . Thanks nf1e especially for the chamber ,magazine ...


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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #16
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Man this is a good thread for guys like me learning the nuances of m14 type rifle . Thanks nf1e especially for the chamber ,magazine lip ,follower polishing tool idea . I have heard all sorts of ways to chamber round 1 out of mag ,ride bolt closed ,use bolt stop and let it fly ,but it does seem pulling the bolt back to unlock and then let it fly is the way the design was meant to work .

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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjcalhoun View Post
Art:
Thanks very much for the info, and the pictures.
I will also note that I don't see the 1st round effect nearly so much with my 20 round mags. I just happened to be using the 5 round mag and the 1st round effect was clear.

I wonder if the magazines owned by the friend of Instructor varied in the friction of the lips and follower?

Thanks again guys

WJC
In your original post you didn't mention that you were using 5 round magazines.

I suspect that the fully loaded tension of these mags is different than standard magazines.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KurtC View Post
A true "cold bore" shot can be as much as 2 moa different from subsequent shots. Long range snipers will often practice with only the cold bore shots, even if it means only one shot an hour. (I've heard stories of one shot per day). Separate dope is kept for follow up shots.

I don't believe the DMR role is expected to have the same type of cold bore accuracy as a sniper. They are usually integrated with a fire team.
I've always wondered about this from a hunters stand point. I guess you need to know your rifle.
"When cold I need to aim low left"....You only get one shot.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:03 PM   #19
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There have been several previous threads regarding magazines and accuracy,
Cartridge location within the magazine ( first /last) having an effect on group size,
And cold/VS warm bores

Also...
Dirty VS clean gas cylinder
And TENSION!!!!

The M14 rifle is a SYSTEM,
and EVERY component in the system can have some effect on accuracy.

When I was doing the 1000 rd proof of concept range testing for the Blackfeather alloy chassis system, while I was not specifically aiming for the ultimate in accuracy, I WAS attempting to minimise the effects of various interferences, to determine if and how much accuracy improvement could be attributed specifically to the alloy chassis.

EBRBUILDER and others steered me in the right direction regarding magazines and round location within the mags.... which helped save my sanity ... as the results I was getting were NOT consistent. Eventually, I found that I shot my best groups with a hot and dirty rifle, and NOT shooting the first and last round in a magazine into the group. I produced enough MOA and SUB MOA groups, with various M14 rifles, to decide that I was on the right path here....
BUT ...
I still and always consider ANYTHING under 2" /5 shot /100 yd groups from an M14, as entirely adequate.
My stndards may be looser than yours.

Fascinating stuff ...
Chasing after fractions of an inch with an M14 ...
A BATTLE RIFLE, originally designed for " minute of man" type shooting.

I found it sometimes rewarding,
but more often frustrating.
And by "rewarding" I do indeed mean MOA or better for 5 shots at 100 yds.

Which I can do easily and consistently with a good AR 10 or most inexpensive entry level bolt rifles.


Good luck with that ...
(;-[)
LAZ 1

Thanks from JEFFJP_N_JJ

Last edited by Lazerus2000; January 11th, 2017 at 03:21 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:38 PM   #20
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OK, How do you deal with Garands that do the same thing? One of my better shooting Garands throws the first round.This is not a cold bore issue. It does it on the first round no matter how many rds I have put down it that day
100YDS 8 rds, surplus ammo

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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:32 PM   #21
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OK, How do you deal with Garands that do the same thing? One of my better shooting Garands throws the first round.This is not a cold bore issue. It does it on the first round no matter how many rds I have put down it that day
100YDS 8 rds, surplus ammo
I can confirm that my match prepped M1's do the same thing. It is NOT a cold bore issue on the M1. Its not related to the usual accuracy mods. If I pull the gas plug and shoot it like a bolt action, the whole enbloc goes to the same point of aim. I've swapped every component on my rifle (including the receiver) and the phenomenon continues. I don't have the answer.

Gus wrote about this. I'll try to find it.

For what it is worth, my M1A might be doing this a little bit, but to a much smaller degree and with less frequency.

M1 Garand weird accuracy


Last edited by Allen Humphrey; January 11th, 2017 at 04:36 PM. Reason: found link
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
OK, How do you deal with Garands that do the same thing? One of my better shooting Garands throws the first round.This is not a cold bore issue. It does it on the first round no matter how many rds I have put down it that day
100YDS 8 rds, surplus ammo
The first round is fed into the chamber manually, while the rest are fed by means of the gas system.

Next time you are on the range, load your rifle as usual. Before firing, manually extract the first round and chamber the second. See if that one becomes a flier.

If it does, then it is the manual loading that is making the difference. If it doesn't, then your rifle simply doesn't like you.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #23
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This picture is from my match prepped M14 at 200 yards on a standard SR target. The gun was warm and I didn't call the wide shot, which was the first round from the mag. Sight picture looked good when it broke. Was it me? Maybe.

Interesting to note that the 10 rounds on the target were fired with 2 strings of 5 from a mag. Second string of 5 (from same mag) went right into the group.

While I've tested and proven (to me at least) that this is a real thing in the M1, I have not specifically tested this in my M14. I have noted that frequently(lets say 25% of the time) that the widest shot in my groups is from a first round.

[IMG][/IMG]

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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtC View Post
The first round is fed into the chamber manually, while the rest are fed by means of the gas system.

Next time you are on the range, load your rifle as usual. Before firing, manually extract the first round and chamber the second. See if that one becomes a flier.

If it does, then it is the manual loading that is making the difference. If it doesn't, then your rifle simply doesn't like you.
I own 29 Garands and they all do it to some extent, this one is worse than all the rest.
I have heard the arguement before that its the way the round is stripped from the enbloc but I do not see how it could make that big a differnce
I have done everything to this rifle to figure it out and doesnt make any difference

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Old January 13th, 2017, 04:04 PM   #25
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Guys:
To KurtC's point - I'm sorry for not mentioning the 5 round mag at first; obviously an important detail.

I was back to the range today with some of my match-grade ammo: 168g SMK over 42.5g Hodgdon Benchmark in Federal Match cases, CCI 34 primer.

The first round effect was much less - perhaps 1/2" or so, rather than 1 1/2" with the Hornaday 150g FMJs. Bullet, powder, COL, magazine all were different. First round of this set was the uppermost 9 at about 10 o'clock. For scale, the X ring is about 1 1/16".

On another matter, are there identified causes of horizontal stringing? See the attached target in which the horizontal dispersion is about twice the vertical. Wind was light and variable 4-6mph. Each of the ten 10 shot developmental loads had greater horizontal dispersion compared to vertical.



I'm sure there is expertise here that may be informative.
Thanks in advance.

[IMG]c:\Documents\_Shooting\SprM1A\17Jan13\SMM20.jpg[/IMG]

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Old January 13th, 2017, 04:09 PM   #26
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Previously mentioned image.
WJC
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SMM20.jpg (28.7 KB, 8 views)

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Old January 13th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjcalhoun View Post

On another matter, are there identified causes of horizontal stringing? See the attached target in which the horizontal dispersion is about twice the vertical. Wind was light and variable 4-6mph. Each of the ten 10 shot developmental loads had greater horizontal dispersion compared to vertical.



I'm sure there is expertise here that may be informative.
Thanks in advance.

[IMG]c:\Documents\_Shooting\SprM1A\17Jan13\SMM20.jpg[/IMG]

If the rifle is scoped, that is where I would start looking. See if you get horizontal stringing with the irons before diagnosing the rifle.

Not all scopes are created equal, especially when it comes to an M14. An erector tube spring might be slipping.

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Old January 13th, 2017, 05:01 PM   #28
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OK Thanks
Leupold VX-R 3-9 on a Sadlak airborne mount.

Mount is solid and tight; rings are Leupold rings, torqued to spec.

It does string horizontally with irons, which i had attributed to inconsistent lateral sight picture. Interestingly, my NM iron groups are only ~15% bigger than the corresponding scope groups.

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Old January 13th, 2017, 05:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjcalhoun View Post
It does string horizontally with irons, which i had attributed to inconsistent lateral sight picture. Interestingly, my NM iron groups are only ~15% bigger than the corresponding scope groups.
Then I yield to those who have more experience with bedded rifles. Hopefully they will chime in.

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Old January 13th, 2017, 06:32 PM   #30
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wjcalhoun,

Back in the day we would match magazines to the rifles. I distinctly remember one such time when 2 magazines would shoot the 1st shot in the center and the next shot at 3 o'clock in the 10 ring, sorted thru mags until I found 2 that shot to the same point. Couldn't explain why, but it was completely repeatable. Also at the time our State Association had access to approximately 100+ magazines.

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