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How to safely shoot 180gr bullets?

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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #1
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How to safely shoot 180gr bullets?

Not looking to shoot a million of these but I would like to set this thing up to do some hunting one day. I am currently rocking a norinco 18"bbl.

If I buy a usgi gas system and an adjustable gas plug, such as the schuster below, am I good to go buck wild with 180 gr bullets without having my op rod fly off?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/699...eel-parkerized

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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #2
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Load them to a velocity of about 2300 to 2400 FPS with a medium burning powder and have fun shooting them. Some M14 type rifles don't seem to get their best accuracy with the 180, but Mine did quite well at 600 and 1000 yards.

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Old November 10th, 2012, 03:02 AM   #3
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agree with Mr. Brown. going from 175 (usually SMKs) to 180 grain (other type) bullets does not trigger any "danger" switch in your gas system. The M14 gas system is less sensitive to port pressure issues than the M1 Garand system and you can safely shoot 200 grain bullets in an M1 (in 30.06 of course).

the (obvious) key to shooting heavier bullets in either is to stick with the "usual" powders and keep you loads around the lower-middle of the loading/pressure/data range.

Of course, getting an adjustable gas SCREW gives you the advantage of going to higher pressure levels without worrying about excessive port pressure.

Finally, I am not much of a big game hunter, but for deer, I would rather use lighter bullets (150/165) at higher velocities anyway.


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Old November 10th, 2012, 04:00 AM   #4
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Deer are usually bigger up north. Then again, they can have bigger bears, elk, moose, etc. that we don't have down here in the warm/muggy flat lands.

The smallest deer I killed at home was heavier field dressed than the big deer down here with their guts still in them. The biggest deer I killed up home was over 200 lbs. with the guts out of him.

I killed all my deer with 150/165 grain bullets but I knew a lot of guys that wouldn't deer hunt with anything less than 180 grain bullets.

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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #5
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Bing 'em humanely with the ≈150 - 160 grainers!

FYI guys, for several years I hunted (successfully) with my Ultralight Arms Mdl 20 chambered in the teensy, diminutive 250-3000 Ackley Improved (22" bbl), and I used both the 100 gr and the "shockingly heavy" 117gr Grand Slams. Oh My Gosh, huh? How DID them muleys ever go down?

*btw, the measured max V @ 10 feet in front of the muzzle was 2950 on the 117s, and 3140 on the 100s in The IMP loads. The increased bullet bearing surface on the heavier bullets may be the reason for the relatively large diff in measured V with those Grand Slams, but it may also be a result of some internal pressure dynamics with that bullet on top of the powder I used in my rifle.

Point is, to go after deer with a 168, 180 or even 200? Those heavier bullets are certainly not necessary, IMHO. The lighter, faster 150s or 155s will most certainly do the trick, and the higher V will lengthen your effective hunting range by at least 50 - 70 yards (out to at least 600 yds I'd say, if you can reliably and actually do your part. As in: you should be able to drop all of 4 shots, from a cold bbl., into 12" max @ 600 yds. (Even given sub-MoA @ 100, which of course should give us 6" @ 600 yds {good luck with that! a lot more stuff comes into play by the time your bullet has cruised out to such ranges, incl:

√ accumulated wind & cross-wind effects

√ gravitational, and even global rotation, effects (I know, minor with such high Vs, unlike my 45-90 with 550 grainers @ 1100 fps.)

√ sighting errors based on stadia subtention issues ("them duhrn lil' wyres, they duhn covered up some'thuh targut whay out thar!) (*Note: my Leupold Mk 4 LR/T 6.5 - 20X {50mm, has a nice tiny little missing bit right where those stadia lines cross in the center, about an "Achmed's head" size for really longish ranges with no subtension issues! Nice touch, Leupold! Also note that this scope is NOT good for general large game hunting [yeah... maybe for varmints on a truly bright sunny day, @ 800 yds with a hotshot cartridge; 220 Swift anyone?] since the central stadia wires are REALLY super-thin!

All in all, that's not good for seeing them against a dimly lit, and failing-light evening with a dark coniferous forested background, with a nice soft, furry multi-toned muley buck standing in the shadows @ 450 yds away! Danged near impossible, in fact, to even find those crosshair wires!)

√ a V spread of let's say 40 - 60 fps , measured as ES [extreme spread] on your chronograph, translates into simple differences in bullet drop out that far, whereas @ 100 yds it's insignificant.

(easily seen if you enter some velocity numbers into an online ballistic calculator, but input, let's say, an initial V of 2700 and then try 2725 and then 2750, and see where the bullets impact, and even how much more the wind impacts the bullet's lateral, as in: wind-drift- performance. Those inches add up.

√ time-to-target: significant increases in time to impact between those "V"s at that simple 100 yd, and the far more difficult 600 yd, time to impact. That durned Bull Elk may just have sauntered along a few feet, so that your aim point has, obviously, also wandered 2 - 3 feet off center! Danged live targets, huh?

So, increasing your initial V by let's say an additional 80 to 120 fps, achieved by keeping the bullets 10 - 30 gr lighter, though sufficiently heavy to insta-kill your primo deer, will help in many ways, again IMHO.

(Just imagine.. if our boyz out in The Greater Sandbox could have even some, say, 110 - 120 gr boolitz zipping along @ ≈ 2800 - 3000 fps! (a new service rifle round, of course; perhaps a 6.5 Grendell or 6.8 SPC mayhaps? Come on, Gov'mint testers: get ON with the program!). Achmed the Now-Dead Terrorist would not like this one teensy bit, no no noooo!)

Well, the sun'll be up in a few hours! Time to get some rest: we'ze a'goin' shooting today, and I have to load up some second-time reloads for my Lucy!

I will be seeing "What'll she do?" with my pet 155 gr load @ 2700 fps, and at ≈ 200 yds. As well, it sure beats racking leaves and picking up black walnut nuts!


Last edited by MesaRifle; November 10th, 2012 at 05:44 AM.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:34 AM   #6
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I've been using a .308 for some time now through an 88 Wichester. I've used 150's to 180's and have settled on 150 nosler partitions for any deer and bear here in Pa. and up to 165's bonded bullets for anything bigger else wear. The biggest thing is to keep your shots inside of 300yards and hit them in the boiler room,a .308 will get it done and if we could use a semi auto I wouldn't hesitate to run the same loads in my M1a. Actually the next trip I take where I can use a semi I will be packing it. Dan

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Old November 10th, 2012, 08:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
agree with Mr. Brown. going from 175 (usually SMKs) to 180 grain (other type) bullets does not trigger any "danger" switch in your gas system. The M14 gas system is less sensitive to port pressure issues than the M1 Garand system and you can safely shoot 200 grain bullets in an M1 (in 30.06 of course).

the (obvious) key to shooting heavier bullets in either is to stick with the "usual" powders and keep you loads around the lower-middle of the loading/pressure/data range.

Of course, getting an adjustable gas SCREW gives you the advantage of going to higher pressure levels without worrying about excessive port pressure.

Finally, I am not much of a big game hunter, but for deer, I would rather use lighter bullets (150/165) at higher velocities anyway.



I like John R. Clark and thats his load data from many years ago, notice that he refurs too the 168 SMK as the 168 Sierra International HPBT common among old school shooters/reloaders, the bullets used were SMK bullets NOT hunting bullets so there bearing lenths are not the same so one shouldn't compare them for safty reasons, also of note that the 180gr SMK HPBT used in this load development is NOT the same 180gr SMK bullet made today the BT angle and bearing lenths have changed not for the better with the NEW 180 SMK.

There up side is this load development was done long before the advent of the venting gas cylinder plug, and you willl notice that he has listed load data with USGI brass, not that there much differance in 30.06

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Old November 10th, 2012, 09:08 AM   #8
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OR,
You could shoot the heavy bullets in an AR10.
;)
Seriously, much as I love the M14 for what it IS, why do so many people keep trying to make it into something else?

I have both types, and last time out at the range, my AR10 shot some OLD Win Silvertip SP TWO HUNDRED gr into M O A.

Can't do that with the M14 ... or at least not easily.
BTDT,
Got them both!

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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerus2000 View Post
OR,
You could shoot the heavy bullets in an AR10.
;)
Seriously, much as I love the M14 for what it IS, why do so many people keep trying to make it into something else?

I have both types, and last time out at the range, my AR10 shot some OLD Win Silvertip SP TWO HUNDRED gr into M O A.

Can't do that with the M14 ... or at least not easily.
BTDT,
Got them both!

You right Laz, no more chassis star ship trooper stocks on M14/clones they should all look like a real rifles they make them look like dog crap. But too each there own?

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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #10
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..
and here is MORE data from the same article..



here is an interesting article on heavy bullets in .308..

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...conundrum.html

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Old November 10th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #11
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ahhh, Hugo? you are aware the OP was asking about 180's in a Norinco M14 type rifle not a 30.06 M1 Garand, and that German loads are geared for Long Range bolt actions?

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Old November 10th, 2012, 06:57 PM   #12
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For long range paper punching, one of the better option these days is the 168 Berger Hybrid, with a G1 BC at .519, they fly very well in the wind and stay over Mach 1 at 1000 yards. The 168 Hybrids have better BC than 175 SMKs, and just slightly less than the 190 SMKs as tested by Brian Litz.

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Old November 11th, 2012, 03:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGrath View Post
ahhh, Hugo? you are aware the OP was asking about 180's in a Norinco M14 type rifle not a 30.06 M1 Garand, and that German loads are geared for Long Range bolt actions?
yes, it was an ANALOGY. I specifically mentioned how the M14 is LESS sensitive to gas port issues than an m1, yet the you could "safely" shoot heavy bullets in an M1. Thus, it is even LESS of a big deal in an M1A/M14 (again, as long as you use appropriate powders and moderate loads). The OP specifically spoke of "oprods flying off."

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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #14
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This is what you want to avoid: Cracked receiver heels. You over accelerate your bolt with loads that are too high pressure you run the risk of cracking the receiver heel.

I consider a 180 grain marginal for the M14 gas system, I knew target shooters who used the 180 SMK, because the 175 was not around, but charges for the heavier bullets have to be reduced or you risk a high bolt to receiver heel impact. I think for a hunting rifle you would be better off with 150ís, but it is your rifle and you are free to do what you want.






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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #15
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Start by getting a Remington, Winchester or Savage (especially if funds are finite) bolt gun in .300 Win Mag, or .30-06.

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