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M14 (M1A) vs AR-10???

This is a discussion on M14 (M1A) vs AR-10??? within the The M14 forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I'm an M1A guy. It was my first rifle purchase ever. (I'm 33 years old fellas) One of my friends just purchased a $2300.00 AR-10 ...


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Old November 22nd, 2011, 08:35 PM   #1
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Question M14 (M1A) vs AR-10???

I'm an M1A guy. It was my first rifle purchase ever. (I'm 33 years old fellas)

One of my friends just purchased a $2300.00 AR-10 and I fired it.

I'm still an M1A guy.....I was not impressed. At least by comparison.

I would like input from those of you who have experience with either platform in combat environment..............Range data I already have.

Accuracy difference?

Reliability difference?

Ability to function wet,sandy,muddy, dirty?

Why is the AR-10 not more popular?

I'm not thinking about converting......I'm just curious.....

Thanks...

D

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 08:39 PM   #2
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Not even worth the words to discuss it. M14 is the way to go. The AR 10 platform is not as burly or robust as the m14.

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 08:45 PM   #3
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I have both a SA M1A, a DPMS LR-308 classic and an AR-10. I would feel fine taking either one of those three into combat and have tested them in crap conditions. All of them worked fine.

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 08:59 PM   #4
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The AR-10 can be a more accurate system out of the box. The reason for such is because of the receiver, barrel and bolt design. The upper receiver is simply a housing for the bolt and a mounting point for the barrel. The bolt carrier group essentially floats in the upper receiver until locked into the barrel extension when firing. The use of heavy or medium contour 410 and 416 SS floated barrels also help greatly in repetitive accuracy. Finally, the lack of a piston system can also aid with accuracy but the downside is receiver fouling.

The AR-10 is also easier to scope from the get go and can be a more modular platform without having to spend large sums of money. The Army and Airforce currently use the KAC M110 - basically a derivative of the SR-25 which was patterned after the AR-10. So far, I haven't heard of any major issues with the platform from those serving in current conflict theaters.

With that said, accuracy can be achieved with the M14 platform but requires more 'fiddling' to do so. FWIW, my Scout out of the box shot about 3-4" groups at a 100 yards with surplus ammo. My friend's basic Armalite AR-10 could print 2" groups with the same surplus and MOA to sub MOA with match loads. I believe he paid around $1300 for his rifle. I recently purchased a Sage EBR stock to see if I could improve my M1A's accuracy to something equivalent but required an additional $700+ to get there. Total investment in my Scout is about $2100. You could get away with better accuracy in an AR-10 for significantly less.

I'm going to purchase the Armalite AR-10EBF SASS within the next few months to play with. It'll cost less to go that route than to build my own or buying an SR-25. Both are great platforms; it all depends on what you want to do with it.

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 09:29 PM   #5
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It would be interesting how a military armorer would rate the maintenance requirements between the two rifles.

Remember that many folks simply regard the M14 as an ancient design, automatically relegated to the historical heap. They simply ignore the EBR upgrade. I find it interesting however, that hunting rifles maintain the old wood and steel look. Why don't they make hunting rifles that look like AR's?

By the nature of this forum, many of us are biased in our affection for the rifle we had in boot camp, used in color guard, saluted with at military funerals. A couple of years ago we had a large memorial service for four slain police officers. I watched the state patrol honor guard with their m14's in an outstanding and emotional display. The rifle evokes honor and tradition when we need it. Maybe someday folks will feel the same way about the AR?

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 09:41 PM   #6
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Check out the M110 SASS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Se..._Sniper_System

It's an upgrade/improvement(?) to the SR-25, and has been adopted by a number of military organizations.

I luv the M14 and the FAL, but there are new kids on the block.

JWB

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 09:42 PM   #7
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I think that the AR platform guns are laid out in such a way that they can be operated more quickly than the M14.M1A's.I think the controls are better located, I'ts easier to make rapid mag changes, as mentioned above, they're easier to mount optics and other accessories to, there seems to be more components available to modify them and improve performance. The pinned upper/lower design allows you to have multiple uppers of different barrel lengths and even calibers, that you can switch in less than a minute. All that being said, and after building a bunch of them, I'm here building my first M1A. I also notice that in competition they seem to be faster than the guys shooting the M1A's. Of course competition isn't combat so maybe the M14's would win out as far as durability goes, not sure on that. BUT the M1A's are STEEL and real guns are supposed to be made of steel.

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 10:45 PM   #8
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First off let me say that I love my M14 style rifles. I've chosen them over H&K's, FALs and Valmets. That being said it is a dated platform that doesn't offer the modularity and inherent accuracy of the 'new' AR style of 7.62 rifles. The AR style rifles also have the added benefit of not having the 'sniper rifle' silohette that the bad guys in the sand box are looking for. To make the M14 into a viable sniper rifle the U.S. Military feels that upgrades like the Sage EBR need to be added to enhance the platform to make it a DMR weapo n.

For me it works because worst case I might have to knock some civilian troll out of his tree or shoot through a barricade to get him. As a sniper rifle of choice in a warfare scenario I would probably have to look at one of the AR10 style of rifle.

Am I buying one to replace my M14's? NO!

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 11:02 PM   #9
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What everyone else has already said pretty much sums it up.

While the M14 series of rifles are awesome in their own right, even with the EBR chassis it's hard to beat the ergonomics of the AR series of rifles. Plus, by nature of it's design, it's a fairly accurate battle rifle right out of the box.

Will I sell my M14 to fund an AR 308? Hell no! But I am eying the LMT MWS to play around with.

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Old November 22nd, 2011, 11:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercman View Post
First off let me say that I love my M14 style rifles. I've chosen them over H&K's, FALs and Valmets. That being said it is a dated platform that doesn't offer the modularity and inherent accuracy of the 'new' AR style of 7.62 rifles. The AR style rifles also have the added benefit of not having the 'sniper rifle' silohette that the bad guys in the sand box are looking for. To make the M14 into a viable sniper rifle the U.S. Military feels that upgrades like the Sage EBR need to be added to enhance the platform to make it a DMR weapo n.

For me it works because worst case I might have to knock some civilian troll out of his tree or shoot through a barricade to get him. As a sniper rifle of choice in a warfare scenario I would probably have to look at one of the AR10 style of rifle.

Am I buying one to replace my M14's? NO!
Dated platform? Is the M14 newer or older than the AR platform?
Here is some info on the AR platform:
ArmaLite sold its rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt in 1959. After a tour by Colt of the Far East, the first sale of AR-15s were made to Malaysia on 30 September 1959 with Colt's manufacture of their first 300 AR-15s in December 1959.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15
Compare this to the dates surrounding the M14:
Springfield Armory began tooling a new production line in 1958 and delivered the first service rifles to the U.S. Army in July 1959. However, long production delays resulted in the 101st Airborne Division being the only unit in the Army fully equipped with the M14 by the end of 1961.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle
The AR platform was and is a terrible main battle rifle platform. The cartridge is designed from a varmit round for animals weighing less than 25lbs.
The AR platform is not reliable. If the failure rate of the AR platform happened to the Garand during WWII it would not be known as the "Greatest battle implement ever devised"
If the M14 platform is so "outdated" why is it even in the TOE of our current Military, I mean heck where is the trapdoor, or krag.
The M14 is the greatest main battle rifle ever designed.
The age of the AR platform is from the late 1950's, same as the M14 platform.
Weigh your AR 308 platform and tell me it is lighter than an M14, try and service your weapon after a serious jamb in the AR platform, and compare to the take down of a M14, hell look at the condoms for the muzzle, cleaning requirements, zip lock baggies for the AR platform, special lube, powder requirements, difficulty in cleaning the gas system, and God forbid a bolt carrier stuck in the buffer tube. (can you tell I don't like the AR platform)
You claim it is easier to add components to the AR platform, why, the M14 has the best sight system, bullet delivery system ever devised, does it really need extra components. The consideration, and thought put into the M14 design proves the system, it is timeless.
Read this:
http://pattonhq.com/garand.html
2/3rd of the way down is an opinion held by many.
"The legend of the Garand was--and is--based upon the unassailable fact that the weapon, in spite of its theoretical weaknesses, WORKS--in the mud, in the rain, in the snow, and in the dust. History has irrevocably proven this beyond any possible doubt and it is important evidence that theory, however enticing it may appear to be, must be proven in the cold light of dawn. Those who forced the adoption of the 5.56mm and the M16 forgot this critical fact. And, in that cold light of dawn--this time in the steaming jungles of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos--the concept of saturation fire and general abandonment of the principles of individual marksmanship and weapon performance FAILED.
They failed because they were accepted as being the universal solution to all military problems and this attitude was transmitted during training to the troops. Tactics and weapons have been generated around this thesis for the last twenty years and have come back to haunt us. I know. I was there. I was one of those who wrote the letters to the families of those who had fallen in battle, one of the most difficult tasks of a commander. Many of those men died because of the failure of theoretically sound, but realistically invalid, policies. I saw it myself. Too many died because the 5.56 and M16 failed."

There is alot of info concerning the failure of the AR's in the desert, Jessica Lynch's convoy had a 90% failure rate of the AR platform, if this had happened during WWII what do you think would have happened. Even if you cut the rate in half 45% what do you think would have happened? For years our troops have been issued a weapon system that jambs.
One article, not saying it is the article just an artical:
http://www.defensereview.com/weapons...-7-news-story/
Think about it, a varmit round? An aluminum receiver with forward assit? Direct gas into the action? Sand jambs it so fast it is amazing.
The claim that accesories can be added, look how long it took to get a flat top upper, what about the LRBM25? If the M14 had stayed as the choosen weapon how many models would have developed?



Jim


Last edited by jake2far; November 23rd, 2011 at 05:51 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2011, 12:01 AM   #11
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Jake2far you do know an AR-10 is 7.62x51 or .308 right?

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Old November 23rd, 2011, 12:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by philip26p View Post
Jake2far you do know an AR-10 is 7.62x51 or .308 right?
Yes and it is listed in my rant.
The platform has the same problem, .308 or .223 doesn't matter.


I guess you didn't read the whole thing, can't say I blame you.
The original Stoner AR10 was what caliber? It was 308 and was developed in 1956, it was modified into the AR15 platform.
I guess the real question is, do you think the 308 caliber will perform any different than the 223? They are based on the same design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-10

Jim

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Old November 23rd, 2011, 01:12 AM   #13
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The AR10 is a DI operated weapon and unless you compare the piston version to the M14 there is no comparison. IMHO the M14 was short changed back in the 60s but still being utilized today. With that said why a rifle platform with 60 or better years in service is not our primary battle weapon.


You can't beat a piston operated weapon and the M14 in my book ranks the highest .

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Old November 23rd, 2011, 03:43 AM   #14
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These days if you can get a good semi auto .308 in any design, its worth it. I love my M1A in the Sage EBR Mod 0 platform but I like to have options!

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Old November 23rd, 2011, 03:53 AM   #15
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Apparently, as long as I don't drag my M1A through the mud it seems to run OK... However, according to the boys at Guns & Ammo TV it doesn't like the mud.



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