M14 Forum

Gus Fisher

Folks, I guess I should start out by saying "Timing" is the term we use for what officially is called "Timing of Clip Ejection." That phrase is rather confusing as it encompasses not only when the clip ejects but also the way all the cartridges are fed. It is also known as the Timing of the "Release Point" of the op rod when each cartridge comes up and starts to load. Most of the time when an M1 malfunctions and it is not related to ammo or clips or something obviously wrong like a loose gas lock screw, it is due to the "Timing" being off.

When we have a problem with an M1 functioning, the very first thing we must do is make sure it is not the ammo and/or clips as both of those will cause a perfectly set up Garand to malfunction. The clips in the Greek ammo CMP sells are known for causing malfunctions, so stay with new or excellent condition G.I. or commercial clips. The commercial clips are made on some of the same machines they were made on in the 40's and 50's, so they work correctly. As to ammo, most of us don't have access to good condition G.I. surplus ammo any more. Some of the Greek ammo lots CMP sold weren't all that hot, but it seems the latest stuff works. I also recommend Federal's 150 grain, .308 American Eagle and Winchester's "Para-military" 150 grain ammo - it is sold in a plain white box with black lettering. Since reloads may not have been made using the correct powders and primers for semi-auto Battle Rifles and when you have a function problem; then it is best use good ammo you can be sure is supposed to function correctly in the Garand - instead of using reloads that may not work correctly in a Garand.

Often when we talk about fixing malfunction or Timing problems in the M1, we list the parts most likely to cause them. That's good information to a point, but it can cause you to buy a bunch of parts you don't need. So let me attack this from a different perspective this time.

The most important gage when checking Timing is the Timing Gage that is usally called the Timing Block. These are expensive and because of that, usually only armorers and more advanced collectors have them. WWII Timing Blocks were slightly different than Post WWII Timing Blocks as to how they gaged the Timing Release Point. The Post WWII Timing Blocks were changed so they would correct some problems the WWII Block might not show. Most commercially made Timing Blocks I have ever heard of, let alone seen and I've seen all of them, are done to the Post WWII blue prints. The Timing Block shows you if the op rod is released too early, within the spec range or too late. Too early is not common and most timing problems are too late, but they will both cause malfuctions.

SPECIAL NOTE: Believe it or not, about one out of maybe 800 Garands will not work correctly even if they Time Correctly by the Timing Block. That's why it was required all Garands be function fired before they were delivered to the troops. I've had about a half dozen rifles like that in 35 years of working on Garands and the only way to fix that is to take the rifle to the range and swap good parts until you find the parts your rifle wants. One rifle that did that to me worked correctly for over 10,000 rounds after we found the parts it likes. Since most of you all don't have a Timing Block and never will, I'll leave the Timing Block at this point. This link shows a Timing Block, if you don't know what I'm talking about.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/TimingGuage.htm

The next important point is if the Garand was G.I. or commercial and in case of G.I. Garands, how much use and abuse they took over the years. There were two commercially made M1 Garands and they both were bad to horrible. SAinc. made some in the 80's and I think the 90's that were finished machined in Australia. Most of them COULD have been made to work, but usually only by a very experienced M1 Armorer. The other commercial brand is Century Arms International and they are the horrible ones. Many of them can not even be fixed by truly experienced and competant M1 Armorers as they were made so poorly and out of spec. I won't even waste my time trying to work on them anymore. Many of the real, G.I. Garands that came back from Korea were severely worn out and wouldn't time. Actually, working those Garands will make you very knowledgeable very fast, if you work a lot of them and have all the special tools and gages for the Garand. The best Garands and the ones I suggest everyone stick with came from either the old DCM program (Director of Civilian Marksmanship Program) or what is now known as CMP or the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I strongly advise most new owners to buy at least the Service Grade and higher grades to get a good rifle and leave the Rack and Field Grade guns for Armorers to repair and upgrade.

Oh, can't forget to warn you about the welded receiver Garands. Back in the 60's and 70's, it was very hard to find Garands. The DCM only allowed you one in a lifetime. Some folks took the government cut up Garand receiver pieces and welded them back into a receiver. One civilian did a darn good job of it, but he never marked his receivers. Most of them were not done correctly and they often can not be made to work. My advice, stay away from welded receivers like the plague. Oh, one easy way to tell if the receiver has been welded is to check the receiver maker and serial number on the heel of the receiver. Then check the drawing number on the right front side of the receiver. Use Scott Duff's little green pocket sized book called "The M1 Garand: Serial Numbers & Data Sheets - A pocket reference guide to the M1 rifle." When the receiver drawing number doesn't match either the maker or the serial number series - You Have a Reweld Receiver. I found one just this last weekend that would have fooled many experts had I not thought something was "just not right" about that receiver and checked it against the book. If you are not an expert M1 Armorer, stay away from reweld receivers. Personally once I establish the receiver is rewelded - I won't work on the rifle except to replace the receiver.

Well, this took more typing than expected, so we are going to have to do Part II in the following post.

Gus Fisher

Part II

Please remember I stated in Part I that you really need a Timing Block to ensure the timing USUALLY will work correctly, but even sometimes you have to just go to the range and shoot the rifle with different parts after checking it with the gage.

OK, so let's assume you don't have a Timing Gage and go from there.

The first thing is to field strip your rifle into the barreled receiver group, the stock group and the firing mechanism. Put the last two groups aside and concentrate on the barreled receiver group. Take the op rod spring and guide out. Measue the op rod spring. It must be at least 19 inches long and no longer than 20 1/2 inches. If it is shorter, it can negatively affect timing and it WILL allow the bolt to hit the receiver too hard. Op rod springs longer than 20 1/2 inches will cause malfunctions as the op rod often can't get quite far enough back to the rear to work correctly.

Next, take out the op rod catch pin, op rod catch, follower assembly and bullet guide. We want just the bolt and op rod left in the barreled receiver. Now do the "Tilt Test" and see if the op rod moves freely. If not, THAT alone can and will cause timing and malfunction issues BECAUSE the hooks on the op rod that are engaged by the op rod catch could be misaligned. If that is the case either replace the op rod or take it to an experienced M1 armorer to rebend the op rod. Sometimes there can be burrs on the op rod hooks and you should stone them off. Some manuals talk about filing on the op rod hooks to get the timing correct, but you could easily cut through the surface hardness and that means the op rod would be ruined. Personally, even on the worst op rods, I've never filed them for that reason. If the op rod passes the tilt test and the hooks are in good shape, then take the op rod and bolt out of the rifle.

Now push the clip latch pin from the back to the front until it comes out the front. If it really sticks, you have problems that will also cause timing problems. If the clip latch pin is rusted or bent, I replace them as you often can't rebend them straight enough. Now, it is possible a straight pin will hang up inside a clip latch due to rust, grunge or even too much parkerizing in there. When that happens, I run the correct size number drill bit through the clip latch to give clearance for the pin. Sometimes even this won't work and you have to replace the clip latch. Next, look at the clip latch spring. I wind up having to replace at least 40 percent of all clip latch springs from being too worn even in CMP rifles, so if there is any doubt about the spring - REPLACE IT as a good spring is very important to timing. A new clip latch spring will last most of us for the rest of our lives and they are cheap. If the inside foot of the clip latch is really torn up or dinged up, then replace the clip latch. I've only had to do that about dozen times and most of the time it was on really worn rifles imported from Korea. NOTE: Art Tuttle talked about grinding on the clip latch to correct timing during WWII at Springfield Arsenal, BUT I know of almost no armorer who did or does that. If in doubt, replace the clip latch. Put the bolt and op rod back into the barreled receiver.

Now as to that handful of funny shaped parts you have left over........Grin. Folks what many people don't realize is that it may only need one part replaced to correct timing issues EVEN on the most brutally worn Korean import Garands. It could take more, of course, but I was shocked when even some of the most difficult timing issues I ran across only took one part to correct timing on some of those guns. You see, it often only takes a few thousandths of an inch wear to screw up the timing in the rifle. Don't take that as something weak about the Garand as they worked in all kinds of bad/nasty climate and weather conditions and military abuse with a reputation for working that is almost legendary.

Well, this post is going long, so will have to work on Part III when I get some more time.

1KPerDay

Interesting, thanks! I envy smart people.

Do you have a source for the "good" commercial clips?

Gus Fisher

Tony Pucci advised me he has them on order, but doesn't expect them for up to 6 months.

Gus Fisher

Part III,

OK, well I guess it is time to go over some measurements for some of those funny shaped small parts.

The first part is the Follower Arm Pin AKA Op Rod Catch Pin. The normal measurement is .155" on a like new to new pin. I've seen them go as low as .151" and that's NOT good. I will replace any pin that goes under .154" to ensure timing will last. Oh, I've seen a couple of brutally worn Korean Import Garands where the only thing needed to correct timing was this part.

The next part is the Follower Arm. Some armorers were taught to bend these to fix timing, but I don't like to do that. Metal has a memory and it will bend back, so it is not a permanent fix. Also, you need to check the wear on the posts and especially the two rear posts. You have to check them with dial calipers so the arms of the calipers are at about 11:00 and 5:00 to check the wear areas. I don't want to see this measurement go below .120". Sometimes all you have to do to fix timing is change this part.

Next is the height of the nose at the front of the bullet guide. Bill Ricca informed me these measurements went from .175" to .178" from the blueprints. I've seen many of the post WWII notched style bullet guides that went .180" and over on NOS parts. I believe this is due to the fact they changed the Timing Gages from WWII to Post War specs. Now, I've seen a whole LOT of bullet guides where the nose ran from .175" to .177" and that was the problem causing the timing problem. Someone already mentioned the "field fix" was to peen the nose upwards on both sides and even though that is not a permanent fix, it lasts long enough to make it worthwhile - especially if you can't get a bullet guide with a higher nose. This is one of the two primary parts to adjust to fix timing.

Next part is the op rod catch. OK, I have to admit I have NEVER been able to figure out a way to measure these to see if they are in spec. You check the foot for a lot of indenting and cracks. You check the pin to make sure the accelorator is held in properly on both sides. But, that's about all you can do. You just can't look at one of these parts and see if it will work. I've seen many Garands that simply replacing this part brought them back into Timing Specs. This is the second of the two most important parts to fix timing.

Follower and Slide. Another part you can't measure. You check for cracks and to see if the follower is bent, but that's about it. This part almost never affects timing badly unless it is bent or twisted or cracked.

Have to go now, but will write more later.

Orlando

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I had a garand that I was having trouble with, I checked everything. Couldnt see anything that looked bad. I contacted the CMP armorers and they had me send it back. It was returned and would still occasionally not feed correctly (not sure what they replaced on it). One day I was looking it over again , t was driving me nuts not being able to figure this out. I saw one of the ears on the follower rod was slightly bent. Replaced it and problems went away. Sometimes its the simplest small thing that can really throw things off.

Gus Fisher

Good point, Orlando.

I've also seen follower rods that were bent in the main portion of the body that caused timing problems. I sight down them to see if they are straight and if I"m not sure, I lay a steel rule on them.

Dragoon 15

I love my Garands...I can't get enough of them. Thanks for the excellent laydown on fixing the timming of these proud rifles! Keep the advise comming!

Gus Fisher

OK, I think I can wrap this up with one more post.

After you have followed the advice already mentioned up to the small parts, here is how I "attack" timing problems.

If the follower arm/op rod catch pin and/or follower arm is worn too much by the measurements I gave, I replace the worn part or parts. I'm assuming the follower rod is straight and not binding. If it is, replace it.

Then peen the TOP sides of the rounded nose of the bullet guide only (never the bottom side) out to .180" or even a little more. On a very few rifles, I had to peen them to almost .185" to get the timing correct (and not replace the op rod catch as well). If that doesn't do it, then get the very best condition op rod catch you can find. Try to pick one out, but if you live too far from a gun show or dealer - then order one. Sometimes I have to go through four or five op rod catches to ensure timing is correct.

If that doesn't fix the problem, then you almost have to go to the range with a supply of good parts and swap them out until the rifle works. The part you usually have to swap the most is the op rod catch - but on really unusual situations - it could be another part or parts.

If that doesn't work, I'm sorry but you would just have to send the rifle to a qualified M1 Garand Armorer.

Visigoth9

Gus thank you for the excellent instructions on the timing issues found in Garands and how to remediate them.

From the perspective of the receiver, have you found receivers that are beyond redemption with regard to the pin hole for the follower arm,catch and bullet guide?

or is that not a point of concern given that the pin will take all of the wear?....

also the receiver channels for the bullet follower itself...how sloppy/loose should that fit be?

Maybe I am bumping up against a whole new topic...how to determine if you should run quickly away from a receiver

I am in the midst of rehabbing (not restoring) an arsenal mutt with an SA 1945 receiver and a 1952 H&R barrel...

it was a horror when I first opened the box...I am convinced the folks at Anniston spent hours finding the worst looking parts to assemble and are still laughing about it...

big old pongo on the muzzle crown and only the vague memory of a finish on the receiver and barrel nose, multi piece front and rear hand guards and a Gas Cylinder that rattled around on the barrel

well a new gas cylinder, plug and lock and some wood that wasn't in splinters and it is my best shooting Garand ....

with 150 gr SMK hand loads it is rendering under 2 moa at 100 yards on the bags and getting tighter

Good glory I love these rifles

M1A's r BEST

My best shooting M1 was (is?) a rack grade Greek return from the CMP. Not much finish on the metal but dog gone it does that thing every shoot!!

When I got it I had problems with it, too. Every clip went bang, bang, bolt onto the top of the 3rd round jam (sometimes bending the bullet/case a little), clear it and bang, bang, bang, bang, eject the clip and number 8 round right out of the top of the receiver. Every clip, not just now and then.

Of course everyone said "clip latch spring". So I replaced it and it didn't change a thing. I'd already replaced the recoil spring (just SOP when I get a "new" M1). Compared to M1A's Garand parts seem both plentiful and cheap. I've bought a couple boxes of the smaller spare parts so I replaced the op rod catch and pin, the bullet guide, the follower and the follower arm and it has worked like a champ.

Yeah, I know, some of the parts I replaced may have been okay, but the important thing to me is that it works!!

That's one of the things I like about these old rifles. Sometimes pretty on the outside has nothing to do with how it shoots. Ugly can be just fine if the groups are small.

Gus Fisher

I had one dealer customer who wanted me to glass bed and do every accurizing thing to two M1A's and two Garands BUT no modifications that would show from the outside at all. The metal parts had the parkerization almost entirely worn off them. The stocks looked abysmal.

OK, so I was a bit worried that after I worked on them, other people would think I only did Half A$$ work and tried to talk him into at least going over the stocks a bit. Well, no go on that, but I SWORE him to secrecy not to tell others who had done the mods on those rifles. This so my reputation wouldn't suffer. He told me with a twinkle in his eye, "No problem with that as I wasn't going to ever tell anyone anyway."

I didn't understand that, but he woudn't explain. Well, the reason he wanted the outside of the rifles to look crappy was so he could win more money in side bets when shooting at local clubs. People would look at the rifles, figure they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and he had them suckered in good. Took quite a while for most people to stop betting him money when shooting against those rifles.

So accuracy is the most important thing, but making the rifles look better does have esthetic compensation.

Visigoth9

you built him a sleeper... we used to do that with old Chevy's and Plymouths back in the 60's...moonshine sorta wagons

I am convinced that most rifles in a gun shop rack get sold by the looks of their stocks and the bluing/metal finish

Guns and women....never let the packaging mislead you

Gus Fisher

ROTFLMAO!! That was great !!

1KPerDay

ha haaaaa!