Short range 30-06 ammo Part 2. (30-06 Brass) - M14 Forum

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Short range 30-06 ammo Part 2. (30-06 Brass)

This is a discussion on Short range 30-06 ammo Part 2. (30-06 Brass) within the M1 Garand Accuracy forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; The second part of this. I already know how semi auto gas guns are so rough on brass. On the M1A I used to own...I ...


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Old November 18th, 2015, 06:12 PM   #1
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Short range 30-06 ammo Part 2. (30-06 Brass)

The second part of this. I already know how semi auto gas guns are so rough on brass. On the M1A I used to own...I used a lot of LC and federal brass.

On my M1941 I use Lapua brass but I will not do that will a gas gun. Just not worth it. What say you guys about good, durable brass in 30-06? I will be annealing every to every other firing, turning necks, etc. I treat my brass well.

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Old November 18th, 2015, 10:59 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Infantillery View Post
I use Lapua brass but I will not do that will a gas gun. Just not worth it. What say you guys about good, durable brass in 30-06? I will be annealing every to every other firing, turning necks, etc. I treat my brass well.

Just use plane old LC or Greek HXP brass, the Greek is softer brass and being softer last about one less firing than LC does there rims take a beating. With lite bullets 5-6 loadings with full on 168/175 loads its the same old load 4 and into the recycle bucket. If you have the bucks new Winchester is nice but they don't live any longer.

Annealing and turning necks is a waist of time your still shooting a Service Rifle that has generous chamber dimensions, brass just doesn't live a kind life in M-guns no mater how well its treated.

If you looking for longer case life, a M1 in .308/7.62 can go about 2 extra firing before the cases are kaput...

Thanks from nf1e and boomerpusher
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:09 AM   #3
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It sounds like your brass is being worked too much and there are some things you can do to increase case life. Brass is getting to be very expensive and there are things you can do to increase case life and over sizing your brass shortens case life very quickly.
First off you will need a good micrometer. Take fired cases from that rifle and measure them .200" up from the rim and see what the size of the chamber is. I suspect your fired cases are going to be about .471 to .473 diameter. Also measure the case neck diameters. Note: I have seen fired 30.06 cases give birth to brass that is .475 ! ! ! ! !
Next size the cases and take those same measurements.


I believe you will find new unfired 30.06 commercial and LC cases will measure . 465 on the base dimension.


FL dies are not all the same. I have 30.06 FL dies that will resize cases at .466, .469 and .471. The .466 and .469 dies are as they came from the manufacturer. The die that sizes .471 was chucked up in my lathe and polished out to that size. When I cruise through flea markets etc and I find dies at a good price I get them whether I need them or not as I know they are different sizes. When I get them home I size a case fired in a big chamber, measure it and mark the die with the base dimension it sizes to.
I do not own a small base (SB) die.


This begs several questions. 1. why is this so?, 2. How can I take advantage of this. When dies are manufactured they are reamed and the manufacturer has his new reamers ground to maximum dimensions which is normally .469" range because during the manufacturing process the reamers get dull and have to be resharpened. When they are resharpened the diameters the reamers cut is reduced and dies cut at the end of the reamers life are now cutting the min dimension .465/.466 range. Reamers for barrels are done the same way, they cut to deliver new barrels starting at the .473 range and as they wear they are resharpened and are trashed at the .471 range.
You should find the longest case life in LC brass be it 7.62 or 30.06 and if you treat it properly the case life can be extended tremendously.
I now match the FL dies to the brass size after it is fired and arrive at a combination that will only reduce the size just enough to allow it to re-enter the chamber.


On my M1s I have brass segregated for rapid fire and slow fire and that brass is dedicated to one M1. If you are shooting competition say a 50 shot match you only need 24 rounds for the 200/300 yard rapid stage and 34 rounds for the slow fire stages when you are required to load single rounds at a time.


In loading the M1 clip you will find if the loaded rounds have a base dimension of .465 -.467 you can get 8 rounds back in the clips. If they are any bigger they just don't want to go back in. Thusly I size my rapid fire brass in the .466 die and the slow fire brass in the .471 die.
When brass is resized back to a smaller dimension it gets longer and the case length needs to be trimmed back. Most of the highpower competition shooters will cut their brass back at least .005" under the stated case length and I know top flight shooters that cut it back .010".
If you stand with your back to the sun and hold the case so that the sun light is just over your shoulder you can look down inside your cases all the way to the bottom. On new and once fired cases the color of the inside of the case is the same all the way down. On cases that have been fired multiple times you will see what appears to be a black ring around the base of the propellant chamber. At first it will be a faint black ring and the more you size it the darker the rings get. At some point the case will sustain a leakage or break known as a insipient separation. This is why you wear safety glasses while shooting.

Stated simply the less the case moves during ignition and the less the case is resized in reloading the longer your brass life.


With LC Match cases in my bolt guns 100 to 150 loadings are not unusual as I match my dies to my chambers and work the brass very little.


With commercial brass you are pretty well stuck with about a 3 to 7 round life because the case heads are soft and the primer pockets open up. If you do your homework right you will never have a case separation and will only lose brass because the primer pockets open up. Even this can be extended a few loadings by switching to Wolf (Russian) primers as they are a tad larger that US production and will extend brass life.
This begs the question of why are LC cases harder? They are toleranced to feed, fire, extract from full auto weapons and belt guns handle cases very roughly, magazine weapons moderately rough and bolt guns very gently. This was really brought home in the 50s with the French Mod 52 MGs in 7.62 The extraction forces were so great the case heads sustained a high rate of being torn off thusly they were manufactured with more processes making the brass much harder at the case head.
Bottom line use such in a bolt gun you have the Energizer Bunny effect and they just keep going and going and going.


In 1981 I dedicated 500 cases for match shooting in one rifle which is about what you will need if you go to Camp Perry, shoot the championships, short range team matches, long range team matches and the Palma and 1000 yard matches and about forty extra for alibi strings you will fire 240, 50, 20, 20 20 and 45 rounds just for record firing which is 395 rounds for record only. Then add the sighters and alibi strings will eat up 40 to 50 more and that gives you a few extra.


I chambered the rifle with a min dimension reamer and that rifle is now on its fourth barrel all chambered with its same reamer and sized with the same dies and that is as good as it gets because I stress relieve the necks every three shots the same way they were manufactured as new.


If you are doing everything right you should never lose a case to insipient separation nor have a case neck split.

Thanks from CHARLIED308
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Old November 19th, 2015, 05:29 AM   #4
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I use nothing but LC or HXP in my Garands and in my M-14 clones I have been using a batch of Australian milspec brass. Like others have mentioned average case life in M type gas gun is short, you might coax another loading or two out of it but after that you are simply operating on borrowed time. I have a small semi-circular scar in the middle of my fore-head from a piece of LC brass that separated(too many loadings). The front of the case was stuck in the chamber and the separated base was ejected back into my forehead. FWIW

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Old November 30th, 2015, 02:09 PM   #5
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I have not found the ultimate number of loadings since I bought the RCBS X die. I use a king sized safety pin straightened out with a 1/4" 90 deg bend at the point to check for incipient case head seperation. With the trim once and forget it X die, I've found none.

The biggest issue is primer pockets get thicker with subsequent loadings and I use a uniformer to avoid a high primer.

With some cases over 15 loadings it looks like the new failure point will be split necks or loose pockets. I could try annealing, but the rims are so dinged up by that many loadings, they need to be scrapped.

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Old December 25th, 2015, 11:03 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by PhillipM View Post
I have not found the ultimate number of loadings since I bought the RCBS X die. I use a king sized safety pin straightened out with a 1/4" 90 deg bend at the point to check for incipient case head seperation. With the trim once and forget it X die, I've found none.

The biggest issue is primer pockets get thicker with subsequent loadings and I use a uniformer to avoid a high primer.

With some cases over 15 loadings it looks like the new failure point will be split necks or loose pockets. I could try annealing, but the rims are so dinged up by that many loadings, they need to be scrapped.
I also am using the X-die....have zero complaints...

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Old February 22nd, 2016, 03:48 PM   #7
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X-dies are finally available?! wow I'm ordering some!

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Old February 22nd, 2016, 06:05 PM   #8
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My wife bought my RCBS X dies about 4 years ago (maybe 3, maybe 5?? hard to remember). They are what I've been using for some time now for the .223, .308 and 30.06)

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Old February 23rd, 2016, 09:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillipM View Post
I have not found the ultimate number of loadings since I bought the RCBS X die. I use a king sized safety pin straightened out with a 1/4" 90 deg bend at the point to check for incipient case head seperation. With the trim once and forget it X die, I've found none.

The biggest issue is primer pockets get thicker with subsequent loadings and I use a uniformer to avoid a high primer.

With some cases over 15 loadings it looks like the new failure point will be split necks or loose pockets. I could try annealing, but the rims are so dinged up by that many loadings, they need to be scrapped.
MY VOTE FOR THE X DIES!!!! I don't believe I would go that many loads just a problem waiting to happen... I do check for case head separation like you do , and have yet to see any check that way, but I will cut off the brass at 5 to 6 loadings. Need my face for now!! Ha Ha

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Old February 23rd, 2016, 09:19 AM   #10
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There is a faster way to check for how far cases are in their incipient separation life.

Stand with your back to the sun (best when sun is high) and let the sunlight just clear your shoulder and direct it into the case mouth and look for a ring extra dark down in that area.

Before I got introduced to tight chambers I used to shoot cases maybe four times and then re designate them to gas guns.

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Old April 28th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #11
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That is some pretty good info from Hummer there.

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Old April 28th, 2016, 05:59 PM   #12
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Hello, Yea, I think Hummer has been around the block a few times.... His post/replies have a lot of merit.... worth the time to read and learn from.
I could be wrong, but , it doesn't sound like he's the type of guy that uses a case gauge..

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Old September 6th, 2016, 12:52 PM   #13
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Thanks for the good, info. I was wondering how many reloads I could safely get. After reading this I'm not going past 3 reloads myself.

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