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M1 Garand weird accuracy

This is a discussion on M1 Garand weird accuracy within the M1 Garand Accuracy forums, part of the Rifle Forum category; I have posted a similar article before but now I have additional questions and maybe a solution. I have an M1 Garand that was rebarreled ...


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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #1
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M1 Garand weird accuracy

I have posted a similar article before but now I have additional questions and maybe a solution. I have an M1 Garand that was rebarreled with Kreiger by Clint Fowler. The guns's accuracy is to put first bullet at 7 o'clock position followed by the next seven at 2 o'clock. 7 bullets are moa but with first added into formula=3-4 moa. Always this pattern. After thoroughly cleaning yesterday, I noticed some heavy gouges inside chamber. I presume tooling marks... My concerns is that maybe Fowler heated up the barrel too much when reaming chamber and put too much stress back into barrel. The first shot from cool barrel is almost in same hole, if repeating a cycle. Others have responded that my situation or shot pattern with M1 is not totally unique. Kreiger is supposed to stress relief all of their preimum barrels. Perhaps they missed this one? Or, Fowler reamed the barrel too hot. Any opinions on stress (barrel)?

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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:50 AM   #2
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Some machining marks in a chamber are to be expected. Your chamber can not be messed up when 7 shots are going into a MOA.

Now, here is something I have been trying to get across to people for over 35 years with ANY semi automatic firearm. The first round of a group from a semi auto firearm will almost ALWAYS be outside the group of the rest of the rounds in the clip or magazine. The reason for that is because it is impossible for you to load the first round like the firearm loads the rest of the rounds in a clip or magazine and you loading the first round throws that shot out of the group. National Match Service Rifle and Service Pistol shooters are taught about this because you have to "hold off" or aim slightly off center to get that first round in the group and then hold center for all the rest of the rounds.

So your rifle is acting exactly like any semi auto rifle or pistol will act.

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Old December 21st, 2012, 04:21 AM   #3
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Assuming you had Clint match prep your rifle (bedding, unitized, etc.) then I do suspect something is in fact "wrong" with your rifle. There should not be a 2 MOA difference between the 1st vs. 2-8 in a Clint Fowler match rifle (and quite frankly, not in a NON-match prepped rifle if it is put together carefully--not 2MOA!).

(more specific information about your rifle/mods if any etc./who and how it was put together, would be helpful).

Unlike Gus, I am not going to dismiss "heavy gouges" as "normal machining marks," but whether or not these may be contributing to your problem, who knows. Possible I guess, but would not be my first area of inquiry. On the other hand, if you no-kidding have some "gouges" in your chamber, I would not let that "slide" for half-a-heartbeat. You have spent a big bag of money on the barrel and install (likely 500 bucks at least), you deserve a quality install. Clint has a fine rep (and he did my first DCM match rifle in 93 or so) as does Krieger, but there could have been some missed manufacturing flaw, chipped reamer??

1. If you single load (carefully) all 8 rounds, how does the rifle shoot off the bench? (or taken to the extreme, you could even single-load one round from a full-clip 8 times in a row--CAREFULLY ejecting 6 rounds in the clip and then the 7th unfired round from the chamber and repeating the whole process).
2. Have you considered taking the rifle to a competent gunsmith to see if your concerns about your chamber are justified?
3. If it's not a match prepped rifle, do YOU know how to properly assemble a "stock" M1 for best accuracy? This might be something simple.


Last edited by AKA Hugh Uno; December 21st, 2012 at 06:09 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 07:10 AM   #4
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Just out of curiosity is it a std weight or a hvy KBI BBL. I have a hvy KBI on my garand and it does not exhibit what you described. Also think it is unusual to see tool marks in a KBI chamber but like mr fisher said doubt thats an issue. As far as heat, he probably ordered it short chambered and finish reamed it by hand so no heat generated.

So this is not only happening on a cold bore shot if I understand you correctly. I would try and single load the next time you go to the range and see if what was said is whats going on with your rifle. IE the first round loaded block.

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Old December 21st, 2012, 07:49 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
3. If it's not a match prepped rifle, do YOU know how to properly assemble a "stock" M1 for best accuracy? This might be something simple.
I have a few M1s that are not match prepped, could you please articulate the proper way to assemble the M1 for best accuracy?

Thank you.

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Old December 21st, 2012, 10:07 AM   #6
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OK, now that I am more awake than I was when I first answered the question, I won't be as succinct as the first post.

You did not mention any problems with the fired brass or extracting or ejecting of the fired brass. "Heavy Gouges" in a chamber would always cause such problems. So I may have assumed too quickly there was not a problem. It would not hurt to have a qualified gunsmith or armorer inspect the chamber, if nothing more than to put your suspicions to rest. However, I really doubt you have an unserviceable chamber when the last 7 rounds out of the clip are shooting into MOA.

By the way, a chipped reamer or improper reaming is not the only cause of heavy gouging in a chamber. If something like sand or tiny pieces of rock got into the chamber before firing, that would also leave noticeable wear or gouging in the chamber.

As to the first shot in a semi automatic going outside the group of the rest of the shots that the firearm loads from the clip or magazine. Shooters who fire all their rounds one at a time and load each one singly into a magazine, like they do on the 600 yard line prone of the NM course, won't notice the difference because they are loading every round themselves and the rifle is not loading any of them. It won't show up at the 200 or other "slow fire" courses of the match for the same reason. Where the phenomena shows up is on the rapid or timed fire stages where the shooter only loads the first round and the rifle or pistol loads the rest of the rounds. Of course if the shooter does not have the experience and capability to hold really tight groups during the rapid and timed fires, he/she won't notice it, but it does not change the fact that it does happen. (Rapid fire is the language they use nowadays, but in years past they also used the language "timed fire" to denote shooting 10 rounds with a clip or magazine change in 60 or 70 seconds.) You also don't notice the phenomena as much when firng a rifle at only 100 yards or a pistol at 25 yards.

Yes, if the first shot is from a "cold barrel," that will also throw the first round out of a group. The colder it is when shooting, the more the first round will deviate from the rest of the rounds fired in the group. This WILL show up even when loading single rounds into the chamber when firing. Some people prefer to fire one or two rounds to "warm up" their barrels before firing a group for this reason.

Finally, I have no connection at all to Clint Fowler.

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Old December 21st, 2012, 11:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamban View Post
I have a few M1s that are not match prepped, could you please articulate the proper way to assemble the M1 for best accuracy?

Thank you.
I have a WORD-DOC (or PDF) somewhere around (not sure which computer, will keep looking??).

This (BELOW) covers 95% of the same stuff as the other document and has the advantage of some excellent pictures.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=37215


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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #8
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I am by no means a Garand expert but it could be some binding in the "front" end of the rifle.

I had a standard[nonmatch] "Tanker" Garand one time that would shoot the first 3 rounds into a small group, then start to string shots 4 through 8 in an 8" group in an 8 O'clock direction.

You could let the rifle cool and repeat, cool and repeat, etc and the shots 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, from each shooting, would be about 1 moa or less.

It was freeky. A Match front end job cured the problem.

Also as gus has stated check and see if the first round chambers all the way to a totally locked bolt.

Does it do the same thing if you shoot 8 rounds, feeding all of them into the chamber by hand?

After chambering [safely] try to see if you can push down on the right bolt lug and get any movement.

Also is there any movement of the reciever in the stock?

If not I bet it is in the "front end".

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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
I have a WORD-DOC (or PDF) somewhere around (not sure which computer, will keep looking??).

This (BELOW) covers 95% of the same stuff as the other document and has the advantage of some excellent pictures.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=37215

That is a good link that covers the basics of Garand accurizing. Thanks for posting it. I am sure there are some Garand newcomers that will find it very useful!!

BTW, most excellent group . . is that yours? You can't just post pics like that w/o the details . .

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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #10
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Try and load up 5 or so enblocs and only shoot the first round from each to test out the "first" round zinger theory.....and report back of course.

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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
I have a WORD-DOC (or PDF) somewhere around (not sure which computer, will keep looking??).

This (BELOW) covers 95% of the same stuff as the other document and has the advantage of some excellent pictures.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=37215

If you loaded all five shots in a clip to fire this group, which was the first round - the 10 at 1 o'clock, the X at 3 o'clock or the X at 10 o'clock?

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Old December 25th, 2012, 04:12 AM   #12
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it's a picture from the LINKED ARTICLE.. not my picture.

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