M14 Forum

willriskit · February 22nd, 2012, 06:06 AM

He's a retired Marine armorer listed under Gun Professionals in the Forums section. Anything he tells you will be gospel.

Orlando · February 22nd, 2012, 01:17 PM

A retired armorer who is very knowlegeable , he has his own section here on the forum http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/

LausDeo · February 22nd, 2012, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REGonz

Whos that?

This gentleman, who is such an M14/M1 expert that he has his own section of the site: http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/

phantomguy · February 23rd, 2012, 04:28 PM

So my 1944 30-06 garand ammo is corrosive? Should I fire some, what actions must I take to keep my DCM garand pristine?

Orlando · February 23rd, 2012, 04:37 PM

Yes it is corrosive. After firing you need to do a complete tear down and clean, barrel, bolt face, remove gas cylinder clean under it, end of Op Rod, etc, etc. Then relube with grease
Its not worth it, save corrosive ammo for a bolt rifle

Ezekiel · February 25th, 2012, 10:06 AM

I found this .30-06 ammo on line but I don't know if its corrosive or not (some have questioned this).

http://www.samcoglobal.com/

Its Iranian from the late 60's so I have no idea how good its is since we have had embargoes on them since the 70's. The only redeeming value of this ammo is;

1) Its sealed in a metal pallet can.
2) Its brass cased.
3) Its the only available ammo out there other then CMP or hucksters re-selling CMP ammo for profit.
4) It may go bang when you shoot it.

Range report anyone?

Orlando · February 26th, 2012, 08:04 AM

The few reports I have heard werent that favorable

Greek HXP is cheaper and boxer primed. If you dont reload you can sell the brass for a minimum of .10 per rd making HXP .40 per rd

PhillipM · February 26th, 2012, 05:25 PM

Gus is a retired Marine armorer that built match Garands, M14's, and 1911's, among other things. He's a very patient teacher too, especially considering he's a USMC sergeant.

I got a new SA Inc Garand in 1984 or 85 for Christmas when I was a teen. I had no idea about corrosive ammo or port pressures, all I knew was it was thirty aught six. I blew through a few hundred rounds a WWII M2 ball on short order a vet had given me then shot commercial loads, whatever I could find or afford. I started reloading and found it grouped really good with IMR 4350 loads.

I started noticing the op rod rubbing on the ferrule and the underside of the barrel. The internet was coming online about that time and I found out about the tilt test. It flunked so I removed my pitted from corrosive ammo, bent from slow IMR4350 reloads and possibly commercial ammo, operating rod and replaced it with a BMB from a gunshow. Lessons learned in the school of hard knocks. I will say this, a 20 round box or two of commercial probably won't do a thing, it was hundreds of rounds of the wrong ammo before problems occured.

Last year the author, Walt Kuleck, said op rod bending was a myth on a 1911 forum! He never said I was full of it or anything, just ignored my posted personal experience.

That thread is here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.ph...4&page=2&pp=10

Parashooter on Jouster taught me a lot about what is and what is not acceptable in a Garand with this post. http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...amp-150gr-load

Quote:

One of the problems with the internet is that erroneous or incomplete information sometimes gets circulated and accepted to the point that it overwhelms the truth.

In the case of M1 rifle port pressure, the erroneous information is that port pressure is primarily related to powder burning rate and bullet weight. The truth is that these are merely secondary factors. M1 port pressure is most closely related to gas volume, which is directly related to powder charge weight. Burning rate and bullet weight of course have a direct influence on PEAK pressure, but this occurs long before the bullet gets to the gas port.

With light bullets, we normally use faster powders for best performance since the relative ease with which the bullet starts to move means we can use a fairly large charge of fast powder without excessive peak pressure. With heavy bullets that take longer to accelerate, charge tables tell us the slower powders will give the highest velocity with the lowest peak pressure.

The M1 rifle's gas system was designed for the port pressures generated by the volume of gas produced by a charge of about 44 to 50 grains of powder behind a 173-grain bullet at 2640 fps (M1 Ball). It also happened to work just fine with about the same charge using 150-grain bullets at about 2800 fps (M2 Ball). The burning rate that gives these velocities to these bullets is about that we find in IMR 4895 and 4064. If we use a slower powder, say 4350, we find the appropriate charge for these velocities is heavier - about 55 grains for the 173 and 58 for the 150. Such heavier charges naturally generate a larger volume of gas, but at a slower rate that keeps peak pressure in normal limits. Given that the volume of the cartridge case and bore (up to the gas port) is a fixed quantity, the larger volume of gas necessarily translates to higher pressure at the gas port.

Conversely, if we stick with 4895 but change to a 110-grain bullet, we can stuff in some 54 grains of powder at normal pressure, for a much higher velocity. Again, the heavier charge generates more volume of gas and gives high port pressure. With 200-grain bullets, on the other hand, we can get good performance with 45-50 grain charges of slightly slower powders like 4320 or 4350, giving the same gas volume and consequently appropriate port pressure.

A lot of people who haven't well understood the role of gas volume have focused on burning rate or bullet weight instead - and that's what gets them into logical difficulty. It's very true that an optimum load of the slow powders with 150-180 grain bullets will give excessive M1 port pressure, and also true that the usual best bolt-gun loads of the really slow numbers (like 4831) with 200+ grain bullets will also give excess port pressure. What's missing in the logic is that it's neither the powder burning rate nor the bullet weight that's the problem's root cause - but rather the charge weight (mass, to be more accurate) and consequent gas volume.

It's unfortunate this mistaken (or just incomplete) logic has been so widely publicized, since knowing the whole story really makes powder selection much easier. Regardless of bullet weight, powder charges below 50 grains will generally give appropriate M1 port pressure (or less). Between 50 and 52 grains is marginal. Over 52 grains risks damage to the operating rod. Of course powders must be chosen that will also yield acceptable peak pressure and velocity. (50 grains of 4227 will still make a mess - thanks to excessive peak pressure - but the port pressure would be near normal.)

There are certainly exceptions to this basic rule. Different powder compositions give off different volumes of gas for a given charge weight. But if we stick to the commonly-available rifle powders now on the market, there is surprisingly little variation in the mass/gas relationship and we're not likely to get in trouble with excess port pressure if we choose a published load using less than 50 grains of a powder that gives acceptable performance with our chosen bullet weight.

I urge anyone finding this concept difficult to stick to their existing guidelines. After all, there's little to be lost by limiting one's bullet and powder choices to the accepted standards - 150-180 grain bullets and powders close to 4895's burning rate.

Orlando · February 27th, 2012, 03:02 AM

Gus wont agree with the above

phantomguy · March 3rd, 2012, 06:02 PM

So....if I replace the powder with 4895 I should be okay, right? Got a few rounds of this stuff and this is my only .06 rifle. Trying to keep only LC brass for reloading in my M1 Garand.

PhillipM · March 4th, 2012, 01:45 AM

Your 1944 ammo is most likely loaded with 4895, what is corrosive is the primer residue. Once you get past the shock of the thought, clean it with HOT water. Use a funnel to pour it down the breech, the hot water dries fast. After that clean and oil the barrel properly, then disassemble the gas system and wash it out and the outside of the oprod and the exposed underside of the barrel where the gas system vents.

The difficulty in cleaning up the M1's gas system is why most just shoot corrosive in a bolt gun or a 1919A4 if you are lucky enough to own one of those!

phantomguy · March 4th, 2012, 09:48 AM

I'll salvage the brass and start over...kinda neat having brass that old. Have a zillion reloads, LC, and other new stuff in .06. This and the new barrel is one year younger than me. Otherwise I'd rebarrel to .308 like her M1A sisters.