M14 Forum

MesaRifle

Respectfully, red, it's only the factory ballistics of the .444 that are (only) slightly better than most factory 45-70 loads, yeah. Out of respect for the oldsters out there (no, not the shooter, the rifle!)

But the receivers are identical in strength, and with careful handloads, you can easily out-ballistic the .444 with the 45-70. As well, there are a lot more heavy bullets. As well, there are good aftermarket factory loads from specialists that wayWAY out-perform the .444 Marlin. Try some with CorBon or Belt Mountain bullets.

http://www.beltmountain.com/punch.htm

I was in charge of problem bears up in the Northern Rockies in the late '70s and 80 - 81. We were bulding a massive coal mine, town and railroad, and theS previously pristine wilderness was being invaded by literally thousands of iron workers, construction types and engineers. some wanted to feed Buddy the Black Bear or Gordy the Grumpy Grizzly with their left-over sandwiches. Result? A lot of them durned pesky bears showed up at the kitchens and camps, esp. in the fall. I had to "pot" about 31 of them over two long summers, and long story short, ended up with a then-new (1978) 1895, curved grip cap, 22" bbl. after seeing less-than-good results with a .44 gas gun (the old Ruger carbine), and a bolt .308 gun.

I eventually settled on the Hornady 350 FP over some 3031, which launched those bullets @ about 2150 fps. Certainly not the hottest load allowed in this platform. But..that load did sit them down so fast and reliably that I never changed the load. Now, you can coax a bit more "V" out of them, but even with my load I did have to fit a recoil pad even back then. The new Hornady LeverEvo rounds (325gr @ 2300 fps! Wow Ouchee!) will easily stop an elk or black bear way on out @ 250 yds, no problem. For grizz, esp. coastal biggies, I'd switch to a Belt Mountain bullet.

You can't get a 500 gr round into the chamber unless you first temporarily remove the lever (!!), and then, of course, after it fires, it will normally extract and eject. But... the recoil is brutal since these rifles are not that heavy (about 7.5 lb)! I'd stay away from them. Save 'em for a Sharps or High Wall or Rolling BLock (I also shoot the 45-90 in a C. Sharps, a round that the original 1895 Marlins could be orderd in, but that was a different receiver. Too bad, huh?).

You can load the original Remington-style 405 gr bullets, but that load is also very slow. It will till drop a bear out to, say,. 75 - 100 yds. Point is, you can reload with such a hvy 405 gr bullet. Try the Belt Mountain 325 gr or 400 monolithic bullets: they will stop anything, even a T-Rex ((well OK, a young one anyways. That's been my experience...).

Sadly, I and other gunnys have seen a remarkable reduction in build quality in the most recent (i.e.: Post-Remington) corporate takeover. Typical! Example: I just sent in one of my customer's new Cowboy rifles with a defective bbl (6" groups with any load @ 100 yd), things like sights falling off, etc. etc. So sad! Remington, get your act together! Now!

Enough said; just be careful/suspicious: go for a pre-2008 one when you buy. As for the Micro-Groove rifling, there's a lot of illiterate hype out there: mine, with Micro-Groove, will shoot all 3 rounds of my 350 gr handload into less than 1" @ 100 yds. Not the norm, but possible and often reported. The Ballard rifling is fine, but again, Micro-Groove is absolutely no problem. Even with fast loads. And it's easier to clean, esp. after using cast bullets.

Buy: enjoy. BTW, you should be able to get a good used one for about $600+ on gunbroker.com, or a new one, esp. stainless steel with laminated stock and ported bbl, for $800, or one of the original style ones (wood and blued) for somewhere in between. Put in a Bear-Proof extractor from Wild West guns. Shoot it a lot, and smile !!

Read this:

http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

Fun!

Ivan1GFP

I use 460 grain Lee round nose, 500 grain Lyman Schmitzer and 530 grain Lyman Postell bullets propelled by IMR 3031. The Lee bullets hit about 1450 fps and the others are around 1400 fps.

Alloy is just plain wheel weights.

- Ivan.

Whatsinaname181

Hey, ive always wondered this, but what would you say the max effective range for a point target is with a 45-70?

I remember growing up reading about the plains hunters who used to shoot buffalo from 1000 yards...

Seems like a helluva round.

Seventh Fleet

I had a Marlin 1895 45-70 but the operative word is HAD. Back during the Klinton ban I traded it off for a custom Para Ordnance P-13 and a pile of high cap mags. I still regret that trade but a good gun show bud kept after me for years until he finally came up with a deal I couldn't say no to.

However I still own two Springfield 1873 trapdoors as well as a Springfield 1873 full sized rifle. Not to mention a Ruger No. 3 in 45-70 so it's not like I'm totally out of something to shoot in 45-70.

If you own a 45-70 then reloading for it is a natural. Reloading makes shooting the 45-70 dirt cheap and that way you don't have shooters regret every time you send a round down range. I have no idea what a box of 45-70 factory loaded rounds goes for these days, since I haven't bought a box in decades.

7th

bmcgilvray

I even like the .45-70 loaded to mimic original ballistics. It is highly effective on whitetail deer with 405 grain bullets handloaded to 1350 fps. I have a Model 1884 "Trapdoor" Springfield that is used with this load and also with a load using a 500 grain cast lead bullet at 1100 fps. Light smokeless powder charges using IMR 4198 have proven very accurate and satisfactory in the Trapdoor.



I also enjoy using a Winchester Model 1886 chambered for the .45-70's big brother, the .45-90. Texas Whitetail deer aren't tough enough for this one either. The first deer I ever shot with it was taken with 90 grains of FFg and a 300 grain cast lead bullet, put up in Bertram .45-90 cases. The bullet went through the buck from end to end, hitting him in the center of the chest and exiting through the center of his left ham. The meat in the left hind quarter wasn't even blood shot.

I generally shoot this Winchester '86 .45-90 with .45-70 ammunition much like a .357 magnum can use .38 Special ammunition. Feeding and functioning are perfect with the shorter round.

Ivan1GFP

Maximum range on a point target is well over 1000 yards IF and ONLY if you can be sure of your target's distance within a yard or two and can be sure of your velocity. Past a couple hundred yards, a .45-70 has a VERY high midrange trajectory and at distance, the bullet's drop is VERY steep. The advantage is that it is going so slow that it really doesn't lose much velocity.

I tried IMR 4198 in my reloads for the .45-70 way back, but I was getting much more velocity variation with IMR 4198 than with IMR 3031. Also 3031 uses about 10 grains more powder per charge and takes up more of the case capacity.

- Ivan.

MesaRifle

Exactly. Whenever you launch anything like a 300, 350 or 400 gr bullet @ velocities above about 1900 fps you are going to feel it, esp. in an 8# rifle!

The .444 Marlin had one thing agin it originally; it was only loaded with the factory jacketed 240gr bullet from the.44 Magnum, which was too thin a jacket, too soft an alloy of lead, and too high a velocity for that bullet. (about 2300 fps as I recall). With later bullet development, it was possible to get great deer, moose and even bear performance, and the latest .444 Marlin LEverEvo rounds do very well.

But with handloads, it's always possible to out-do the .444 with the 45-70. You can get heavier bullets! And it's true: the .450 Marlin was/is simply a way to load top 45-70 loads into a round that cannot be chambered into, say, an old Trapdoor Springfield, which would detonate that rifle on it's first Hi-V load!

Yep; they do, but I just sent one in for a customer; it was atrociously built, and even after their ministrations, their test target shows only a 2" group @ 40 yards. Yikes! I surely hope some handloads will set things straight for this customer.

Yeah; I shoot BPCR (black powder cartridge rifle), which is, essentially, target competition with such rounds as the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110 and 50-90 to name just a few, that utilize black powder propellant (45 cal, 70 gr black powder) as in the originals. We often shoot at ranges of up to 1000 yds, at static targets, but as Ivan points out, you have to first sight your rifle in for or at the shoot, and then make all the necessary notations in your range log before even attempting such antics.

With the sun behind you in the afternoon, a good spotter can actually see the brief flash of that 400 or 500 gr bullet as it cruises down ("down" being the operative word here) into the ground ahead of, on or behind the target out at those ranges. The bullet drop angle may be as much as 35 or more down-angle degrees, which means if you are off even a bit in your range estimation or your shooting abilities (esp. @ 1000 yds! How many of us practice out at those ranges, really....???), youz-a-gonna miss, buddy! And therefore possibly seriously wound your intended target.

(Not to mention the effects on such a big, slow bullet by cross-winds, a common condition out on the prairies. A good stiff Montana crosswind of, say, 15 - 20 mph can blow that 405 gr bullet about 3ft sideways out @ 800 - 1000 yds.

Remember as well that the Buffl'r hunters on the late 1800s did this all day every day, and had a great "feel" for their rifles, and the bullet ballistics. They also didn't much care if they wounded an animal, just as long as they got the hide.

It ain't no 7mm Weatherby Mag, ballistically, that's for sure! But with those new pointy LeverEvo rounds, you can surely shoot at big game at 250 yds, with adequate practice. And, if you do venture into big bear country, you can count on your 45-70, esp. if you chamber a 350 - 400 gr flat-point heavy bullet @ over 2000 fps, to absolutely stop any bear's charge out to 100 yds.

thefitter

I recently got the Winchester 1886 in 45-70. Very pretty and surprisingly accurate. FYI it shoots the 500gr hard cast NO PROBLEM. I would however recommend a Bianchi Recoil Pad. Without it after more than 10 shots you are going to be sore.

MesaRifle

There's no doubt; just like an M1A, it's an addictive cartridge to load and shoot, especially with the various rifles & revolvers (and even in a Derringer.... God Help Your Hand, Wrist and Ears...).

I'd love to find a shooter Trapdoor, to treat all lovingly and such! There's an original Cavalry Carbine in mint condition on a friend's wall, but so far he's been immune to my ministrations! Oh, he'll eventually give in, but then again, I may be dead by then!

BTW, this.... is a great and very informative site on them Trapdoor 45-70s!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...iw=965&bih=600


I'm also setting up to (finally) cast all my on boolits! Fun!

Enjoy the day! Rusty

MesaRifle

After many incremental "ladder loads", I settled on a very tame 50 gr of 3031 under a Hornady or Sierra 300 gr hollow point, CCI 200 primer, W-W brass @ 2.101" OaL.. The same 3031 load, or even upped to 52 gr, but with the 350 gr Hornady JFP, to equalize the velocities of the two, rsults in another super bear load.

Anyhow, my mid-range load (50 gr 3031 = 1700 fps) was the only one that would group anywhere near accurately, @ about 1.8 to 2" @ 100 yds, with iron ights (not the originals, but with a Williams Ghost Ring rear and one of their FireSight front luminous plastic posts). Together, this makes a very visible sight package tho' for us eyeball-oldsters, it's still hard enough to put the rear, the front & the target (way out @ let's say, 200 yds...) all in focus together. The idea of a very low power scope is always appealing, a 1.5 - 4X for example.

I did originally have a Bushnell Banner in that power range on my M1895, but the recoil of my 350 gr, 2000 fps handloads eventulaly took their toll, and the wire reticle went MiA... The answer??: Use a better quality scope and you won't have these problems, and of course today most all reticles are etched glass so are not fragile at all.

So, my mildly loaded customer's rifle is soon off to the Olympic Penninsula for a black bear (& possibly elk...) hunt. The 1700 fps range with a 300 gr JHP should drop a "bar" decisively all the way out to about 150 - 180 yds, no problem.

Hopefully he'll send me a picture!

Hiram325

I bought the 1895 cowboy in '05, liked it enough to put Zeiss glass on another one the following year, the '95 standard I guess you'd say. 22" round barrel, the short mag tube. Then I picked up an H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic & put a Williams rear sight on. I love me some .45/70!

BUDS13

274

byf43

Here's a pic of my 1895G "Guide Gun".
Due to a scratched cornea, I now have to use a scope to shoot accurately, with a rifle.
I also put a Limbsaver recoil pad on this rifle because of a neck injury and I've got 1-1/2 lbs of titanium in my neck.



With Federal or Winchester 300 gr JHP factory loads, or my handloads using a Cast Performance LBT 405 LWNGC bullet, this rifle shoots very well. I use Reloader 7 (40.0 grains), and this load is pushing 1,660 fps.
It is quite mild compared to some other loads, and also produces less pressures than IMR 3031, H322, or H4895 at the same velocity.
The load with RL-7 makes a group that is a really nice cloverleaf at 50 yards.
(Didn't shoot any longer distances.)

I stepped the powder up to 42.5 grains, and it shoots just as accurately, but, you feel the recoil a LOT more.


I used the 40.0 grain load to take a wild hog (320 lbs on the hoof) with one shot, at 20 yards, this past Spring.
The slug hit him just behind the shoulder, and one of my hunting partners said that the hog's hide rippled like a stone hitting a pond.
Boom. Thump. The hog dropped where it stood.