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Hawken Rifle Question

This is a discussion on Hawken Rifle Question within the Lever Action forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by DaveH I have never heard of salesmans samples in miniature and original to the period. That doesn't mean to imply it is ...


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Old June 2nd, 2010, 10:07 AM   #16
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I have never heard of salesmans samples in miniature and original to the period. That doesn't mean to imply it is not a cool display!
You HAVE Heard of the Famous Mountain Man...Thomas "Broken Hand" Fitzpatrick, Have You Not?

It's Possible...This Rifle Was Custom-made for His Younger and Lesser Known Brother...

"Shorty"...



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Old June 2nd, 2010, 11:14 AM   #17
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That is very cool!

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Old June 2nd, 2010, 02:42 PM   #18
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Thumbs up Re: Miniatures

I can remember articles in the "American Rifleman" about salesman samples in miniature. Several prominent English gun makers made some as well as American makers. There are collectors who specialize in these.
I suggest that you have the piece appraised by a competent firearms appraiser. If this is determined to be an actual salesman's sample it could be worth a good deal of money.

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Old June 2nd, 2010, 09:25 PM   #19
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Very Nice!

Does It Have ANY 'Name(S) Anywhere on the Barrel ?

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There are no markings anywhere on the rifle! Was told the piece once belonged to "Hugh Smiley" who had something to do with the "Gun Digest" books long ago, A man named Norman LaRock was his assistant and receive it from Mr. Hugh Smiley. I have never researched either of these men.

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Old June 5th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #20
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Just as an FYI, for those curious- my mother's father was a St. Louis native who was a major collector in the first half of the 1900s. He specialized in Hawkens and revolving rifles. I was fortunate enough to grow up around quite a few extremely rare weapons, including 2 real Hawkens. One was a very early full stock with script signature, the other the classic massive mountain gun- half stock, rifled with a block signature. My grandfather's notes indicate "finest Hawken known", referring to the half stock. He would have known. He died in '63, my parents then got the collection. It has been mostly whittled away over the years, as my parents grew tired of caring for and insuring several hundred antique guns. I played with a lot of them, (and broke a couple) as a kid growing up. Sold both Hawkens a few years ago for some high dollar to another major well-known Hawken collector back in St. Louis- where they reside today.

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Old June 6th, 2010, 07:36 AM   #21
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There are no markings anywhere on the rifle! Was told the piece once belonged to "Hugh Smiley" who had something to do with the "Gun Digest" books long ago, A man named Norman LaRock was his assistant and receive it from Mr. Hugh Smiley. I have never researched either of these men.

Scout
Hmmm...

I Really Doubt You Want to Take It Apart...But I have to believe there is Some Marking Somewhere...possibly on the barrel where you can't see it without pulling the barrel...

My Suggestion is you e-mail Dixie Gun Works...with the photo you attached...

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/about_us.php


Turner Kirkland is now deceased...but I believe He was likely the first guy to kick-start the manufacturing of Modern Black Powder Reproductions...
His sons are running Dixie now...
They might be able to provide some more info...

Good Luck,

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Old July 10th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #22
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I recently picked up a new looking 54 cal hawkin carbine with the twin triggers and a traditions 50cal and a winchester 50cal inline in the same deal. My only problem is i never shot blackpowder yet at all. I'm really interested in learning how to shoot them. I like the 54cal hawkin. Who offers the best book on how to shoot these? Bill

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Old July 10th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #23
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Let's see if I can explain without writing a book. Jacob Hawken was apprenticed to Tryon, who was a cranky old f@rt. When the 'mountain men' asked, repeatedly, for what became known as the 'plains' rifle, Tryon refused. When Jacob finished his a'ship, he remembered this, and vowed to give the customer whatever he wanted, within reason. His rifles were inscribed 'J. Hawken', and had a reputation second to none. When his little brother Samuel (reportedly ran away from Tryon) joined the team, the notation was "J&S Hawken'. When they both had died, a man named Grimmer ran the operation, but the muzzle loader was obsolete by then (1862), and the company folded. There are seven things that designate a Hawken: 1. Front and rear sights are one piece (each, smarty) and iron, not brass or silver, which would be invisible against a snow bank. 2. The barrel was almost always over an inch across the flats. Not only a good club, but could be 'freshed out' repeatedly. 3. Thick wrist, not easily broken if a horse fell on it, or the rifle was used as a club. 4. No ornamentation, although many of the 'survivors' do have inlays etc, but were never used much beyond St Louis. That's why they survive, while many of the true 'plains' rifles are gone. 5. The Butt Plate was wide and smooth, with little curve, like the 'English Fowler'. 6. The rifling was extremely slow, about 1 turn in 200 inches, so the terrific (200 grains or more) powder charge would not overstabilize the round ball. As to recoil, see (5). 7. (left for the class, as it's coffe break for me)

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Old July 11th, 2011, 01:54 AM   #24
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Lyman offers a pretty good black powder handbook. I'd take a look at Midway.

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Old July 11th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #25
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One thing to look out for with the mosins is the finnish m39's i believe there were changed to .308" bores in the barrels. Its good to slug the bore if were not sure too.

On the mosins there are two different dates, one date is the orginal date of manufacture its inside under the receiver. The other date is on the barrel. If they match its the orginal receiver to the barrel. If not its a rework. You will find out that most of the hex stocks are reworks. Out of all the different models of the russian mosins i have only my M44 has the matching dates i purchased a brand new in the box russian mosin 44 for only $114 at the time. Rifles like these need to be sighted in for there shot for the very first time. They will shoot off. Bill

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Old July 15th, 2011, 05:30 AM   #26
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Monumental disinterest, huh?

7, Two (count 'em, two) barrel keys. I know, I know, most modern repro 'Hawken's' have only one, but the trademark and patent has expired, so the name is public, free to be stuck on any piece of garbage from any third world 'country' and no one to argue. So much for 'Tompkins Plumb-Center Farr Flat Lander Specials'.

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Old July 15th, 2011, 07:00 AM   #27
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I read somewhere, many years ago, that many Kentucky rifles were built in smaller calibers, so the owner could have them rebored when the rifling wore out. I've owned 3-4 in the past that shot 00 buckshot lead balls, and shot quite well. They were unmarked, although one had Belgian proof marks. Never saw a .22, though.

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Old April 11th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #28
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it was my grandpas

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Old April 11th, 2012, 09:10 PM   #29
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my mother sold it to you i have more info for you

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Old April 11th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by davecampperry View Post
7, Two (count 'em, two) barrel keys. I know, I know, most modern repro 'Hawken's' have only one, but the trademark and patent has expired, so the name is public, free to be stuck on any piece of garbage from any third world 'country' and no one to argue. So much for 'Tompkins Plumb-Center Farr Flat Lander Specials'.
Dave,

You wrote two VERY good posts on Hawkens. I purchased John Baird's two books on Hawken rifles when they were NEW. I also subscribed to his "Buckskin Report" for many years. Yeah, THAT dates me.

Ever heard the term "Japanese Mountain Man?" While the term was not coined because of me, I unfortunately "set the standard" for it the first time I went to the Primitive Range at Friendship at the Spring Shoot in 1974. Now, THAT'S another Sea Story.

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