M14 Forum

Night Stalker

Im in the same boat and the 450 is def. on my short list

RichRoy

I just picked up a 1895g in 45-70. I don't reload so the range of available ammo was a factor. I put a Willd west guns big loop lever, happy trigger and ejector on. The smith said I should look into a one piece firing pin. Then I would be good to go. Very happy with the set up.

edward5759

At times I wish I had the 45-70
I took two deer at about 50 yards with the 444. Drop them like a stone.
But the 45-70 has a heaver bullet selection, Its like cutting hairs though.

dprice3844444

got me a nice 1895 guide gun 16.5 bbl ss from davidsons.they have special runs yearly.have a ruger #1 international magnaported and also bought a magnum research bfr in 45/70 7 1/2 inch with spare 450 marlin cylinder

Powerkicker

I picked up a .450 marlin recently. It's a good shooter.

Col. Colt

Just a different, but informed opinion. The .450 Marlin is NOT the best way to go. It is a vanity cartridge Marlin brought out in response to 1895 users wanting more performance. They missed the opportunity to do it in a better way, because they probably did not want to pay royalties in order to use a better solution that was already available. For those of you who have the .450, they do perform well, but cartridges and brass are always going to be a problem, and it will get worse as the cartridge fades with age. Read on for that better solution.

In the 1990's the bigbore Marlin Levergun was on it's last legs, and close to being discontinued by the factory when a friend of mine, Jim West of Wild West Guns rescued it. He is a noted American Pistolsmith Guild gunsmith, as well as an Alaskan Hunting Guide of much experience. He knew that a big bore lever in the north woods was still a better mousetrap.

He wanted a takedown .45/70, and all the old originals had become expensive collectors items. He and his team at WWG developed the takedown Marlin CoPilot in .45/70 as an ideal Alaskan Guide's rifle.

His only complaint was the downloaded, weak factory .45/70 ammo. He had hot, special loads (in special boxes specifying Marlin CoPilot use ONLY) made by CorBon until a customer fired some in a 1886 replica and stretched the reciever. He realized he needed a different round that would not chamber in a standard .45/70 in order to get .45 Magnum Levergun performance and not endanger users of the older guns. But he did not want to stick his customers with a proprietary, limited production round (like the .450 Marlin) that would be obscure, hard to find most places in America and someday become "no longer available".

So he redesigned the .45/70 case, strengthening the base and lengthening it. The resulting cartridge, the .457 Wild West Guns "magnum" gave the performance he was seeking, while allowing customers to use both .45/70 standard ammo and the 2 1/2" .410 shotgun shell for small game. The ballistics, using 350 and 400 grain bullets produced spectacular results on bears, with one shot stops being the norm.

So if you want real bigbore levergun Magnum performance, and yet be able to buy .45/70 in any gun shop in America, visit the Wild West website. They can sell you a Marlin rechambered for .457 WWG, or modify your .45/70 Marlin to fire it. And you won't have problems finding ammo, now or later. Visit them at www.wildwestguns.com They also have Big Loop Levers, Ghost Ring and Scout Scope sights, and lots of neat options for Marlin users. CC

Powerkicker

45/70 is about as uncommon in my area as hen's teeth. No one uses it in SE VA for hunting. Since I reload and got a like new .450 for $325 I feel I can't lose on the deal. I have about 200 rounds of brass here and .458 projectiles are common. If I didn't reload, my decision would have been much harder.

crash700

I have a Marlin 450 Marlin as my bear protection rifle when Im up in Montana. She kicks a little but will put down any angry bruin. It is basically supposed to be a "Hot" loaded 45-70 Govt. I don't reload so this made the most sense for me as a special purpose rifle, which is what I consider it. I could have gone with the 45-70 and bought hotter loads like Garrett or Buffalo Bore but got a great deal on the 450 with ammo and could not be happier.

feets

I've often thought about a 45-70 guide gun. The standard loads would be fine for me.
Then, I start thinking about my Winchester 94 Trapper in 45 Colt. It swallows heavy Colt loads with ease. I had to put a Limbsaver on the stock. That lightweight rifle has a sharp bit of recoil when launching 250 gr bullets at 1600+ fps. The extra weight of a Guide Gun comes in handy.

My dream gun would be a Marlin 1895SBL with a standard loop handle chambered in 460 S&W.



The shameful part is that the Marlin action can't take the pressure of that round.
In my 15" Encore pistol the factory Hornady 200 gr SST loads averaged 2697 fps. That's faster than you can toss a 200 gr bullet out of a 30-06 and the same as my 300 WinMag 208 gr A-max loads.
That round really belongs in a lever gun with an 18" to 20" barrel.

MesaRifle

Col. Colt's summary is good. I have travelled a lot in the Arctic, including my stint as a polar, grizzly & black bear researcher in the late '70s and early '80s. I eventually found that a properly loaded 45/70 (hell, even one with old low-level factory ammo...) is more than adequate for most bears. Big, slower moving but solid projectiles do it every time!

What did work spectacularly is exactly what Marlin achieves with the .450 Marin: they duplicate the hotter loads spec'd out in the various manuals, but not quite as hot as the listed loads for, say, the Ruger No. 1, which were often confused by hand-loaders, with interesting results....

They could have done it differently. A more modern shorter cartridge (Frank Barnes had some good ideas along this line; the .45 American if I recall...) would have achieved the same results, but it could have accommodated at least one, if not two more rounds. Hardly necessary if you place 'em right, but still...

But why knowingly opt for the .450 Marlin when you'll likely find it hard to locate in most remote places (like Kotzebue or Bettles or Dawson City....), and when you can always just use standard 45-70 rounds, or up-load your existing rounds. Try some Belt Mountain solids or Cor-Bon bullets or even some good hardcast lead bullets @ 350gr and on up (the Marlin won't generally take bullets over 400 - 450 gr due to cartridge length limitations).

My pet larger bear load is the Hornady 350 gr jacketed FP running at about 1900 fps, not the 2150 fps max listed in my old Sierra manuals. For smaller black bears, I used the Sierra 300 gr HP @ about 2000 fps. BTW, the new loaded LeverEvolution ammo using those wonderful 325gr jacketed LeverEvo boolitz are (IMHO) far too usefully hot a load for manageable & reasonably accurate use in the Marlin, in my humble but technical opinion.

Why so? Well... I've shot lots of them in my own, and in customer's, rifles.

The recoil is excessive & unpleasant, and the accuracy, because of that violently high recoil impulse, is generally poor, esp. since the Marlin rifles are just not that heavy!! You can buy those LE bullets separately from Hornady, and then, if you load them to about 1900 or so fps, you'll have a fine 250 yd rifle with plenty of power. For bears though, go with a heavy-jacketed FP bullet (or those incredible Belt Mounain sloids! Yikes A'mighty!!!!) up to about 375 or 400 gr. @ 1800+ fps.

Col. Colt

Wild West uses the Kodiak Bonded bullets, produced near Juneau, the state Capitol. They have special, tapered jackets designed for each velocity range - a 1900 fps .45/70 has a different jacket than a 2200 fps round. Terminal performance on bears has been spectacular and consistent, again, usually one shot, dead bear - brown or black.

I hope no one got the impression that I think the .450 Marlin is a bad cartridge. It works just fine. But I fear that it will not be available where and when you need it, and eventually will be a custom/handload only round. It has a unique case with a longer belt = and that may be a problem to get some day. Virginia doesn't have much game that even needs a .45/70, but in most of the USA it is a regular gunshop item. And brass and loading info is everywhere.

A properly designed 350 gr. bullet is optimum in the Marlin - flat shooting, good velocity = good penetration and expansion up to .80 caliber in most cases. The properly designed Kodiak bullet - designed by Alaskan hunters who have years in learning what works on Bears. Heavier solids don't do any better, and complicate the shooters task with a rainbow trajectory, limiting range and increasing recoil. If you really want a Super bear thumper, have WWG sell you a .50 Alaskan - it's optimum bullet is a 450 gr. Kodiak. But about six rounds at one sitting is all I could ever enjoy! CC

biped

I'm not opposed to any of the comments thus far. I have a Uberti 1874 Sharps in 45-70. My packing rifle of choice is a Rossi Model '92 with a 16" bbl and a big loop in 45 Colt. My handload is 18 gr of 2400 pushing a Hornady 250 gr XTP. I've taken feral hogs and Aoudad with it. The longest shot about 160 yds. Anyway, I like the 45-70 Marlin with the pistol grip stock but have not bought one because my inexpensive Rossi is a good piece and engages the same targets as a 45-70.....because of the handloads.

MesaRifle

Really? Hard to find 45/70 ammo? Hard to fathom, since the ol' .45-70 is one of this nation's all-time historical rounds. And useful too. If I lived out east as you do, PK, I'd be taking me old M1895 out for the fall stalking hunt with a standard (i.e.: lo pressure) load. Very light kick, low blast sound level, and yet those big heavy eonuds just plain drop both ursus and odocoileus with ease.

Good reasons on both purchases since the price was right, I'd agree. But.... if I had the choice, I'd always go with the 45/70. I've found that typical 45-70 Remington 405 gr ammo up in places like Bettles, OTZ and Anaktuvuk, for example, and for sale in tiny little outposts in The Yukon; and literally everywhere in northern BC and Alberta.

A lot of seasoned and experienced guys stake their lives on it, esp. when there's bears sneakin' about, or worse (wouldn't you agree, Col. Colt???) a worried moose mom! They can get downright ornery! But them big ol' .458 cal. slugs, from either of these cartridges, will slow them down for a while as you make your escape, stumbling through the tangled windfalls*, hoping she don't git up and follow you....!
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*PS: what WERE you doing in there in the first place? Going after that cow moose perchance? What are yah? Nutz?)
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Enjoy, whichever one you have and use. PS: I suppose, as an oddball alternative-universe sort of thing, I'd likely be developing some reduced .450 Marlin rounds if I had one of these. I mean, after all, there's no need to always subject yourself to constant pounding is all I'm saying. You'd get to where you wouldn't even want to ever practice with it!

I'm going out right this very morning to fire some new medium 45-70 loads for a customer of mine who has a Marlin 189 "Cowboy". ["medium" means Hornady 300 HP and 350 FP boolitz, both @ about 1850 - 1900 fps. Plus some very pleasant cast bullet loads; 300 gr @ 1500 fps. Nice!]

He wants to go bear hunting with it, but those factory hot 45/70 LeverEvo loads almost knock him, and me, offa our "game-feet"!! After all, his octo-bbl'd rifle still weights but ≈7.5lb! BTW, he's going with a ghost-ring rear and a Williams Firesight (i.e.: luminous) front post, and he expects his hunting range to not exceed, oh..... 150 - 170 yds, more likely out at about ≈100 yds. He doesn't need to be able to also knock down all the adjacent trees, nor deafen the other non-target wildlife!

"All Praise The LeverEvo Bullet!"