M14 Forum

Gus Fisher · November 1st, 2011, 09:15 AM

The fact is that any system gets gamed because humans are not perfect. To suggest a system is flawed merely because someone can game it is not very good criticism at all, taken in this light of reality.

Further, Heinlein's system of republican government does not demand anyone do anything to enjoy every other freedom except franchise. A modern convicted felon often/usually loses his/her right of franchise until/unless he/she does something to show good cause it should be restored. So we have plenty of examples of even those who did enough evil to their fellow citizens and who were properly stripped of the right of franchise, living with all the other freedoms and benefits in society today. In Heinlein's world, one just doesn't get the right of franchise until it is earned.

Heinlein actually spends a lot of time/pages explaining his social theory in the book. I can't speak for him, but because so many pages were devoted to that, he did not have time to go into an explanation of every government service open. Besides, that was not the intent of the book and there was no need to go greatly in depth on it.

Our founding fathers were extremely wise, both to give us a Republic and to limit those who could vote. BTW, for those who like to criticize them today for not including women or free blacks and allowing slavery to go on........ well, they just don't understand what a huge leap forward it was to go to the first modern republic and getting enough support for it to become real. The evil of slavery was well accepted throughout the world in this period. We must give them credit they left measures to correct things as time went on.

Originally, one was not given the right of franchise in the U.S. unless one had served n the military, owned land or owned a business. This was to preclude the downfall of all Democracies when the mob learns to vote for their own largesse. Further, military duty in the militia from the ages of 18-45 was demanded of all citizens who were not bad criminals or insane. This usually meant only to show up with the required arms and stupplies and do some drill on ONE day a month. This still goes back to the idea that no one got a free ride to live in the country without doing something "inconvenient" to support it.

BTW, my own ancestor came to Virginia in the early 1720's by forced colonization due to the fact he had fought with the Scots against the English King in the uprising of the '19.. He was given the choice of forced colonization or hanging. Glad he chose colonization. HOWEVER, unlike most indentured servants, he spent the rest of his days in indentured servitude as punishment for his "treason." His wife shared his fate, but at least his children did not share that fate.

Sweets · November 1st, 2011, 10:54 AM

It's been a while since I read it, but my recollection of the book is that you got to vote only if you were doing or had done military service, period. Heinlein was a libertarian most of all; I saw the society he was portraying as being somewhat based on that of the ancient Spartans- except that all you lost by avoiding the military was the right to vote, otherwise you were a free and equal citizen. People in the novel made fun of the narrator for rating the right to vote so highly as to risk his life, I think.

If put in practice, it would be one way to ensure that troops were being sent to militarily suitable conflicts, but not so good at ensuring they had broad public support....

GARRARD · November 1st, 2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

So for those who insist on serving their term — but haven't got what we want and must have — we've had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will either run 'em home with their tails between their legs and their terms uncompleted . . . or at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've
paid a high price for it. Take that young lady who was here — wants to be a pilot. I hope she makes it; we always need good pilots, not enough of 'em. Maybe she will.
But if she misses, she may wind up in Antarctica, her pretty eyes red from never seeing anything but artificial light and her knuckles callused from hard, dirty work."

This doesn't really encapsulate what an alternative to military service would have been but it sounds like it would be needs of the government.

It is also said that the system of government in the book exists because "it works satisfactorily." As for those who have earned the franchise being infallible or just, that's not why they were given the franchise.

Quote:

So what difference is there between our voters and wielders of franchise in the past? We have had enough guesses; I'll state the obvious: Under our system every voter and officeholder is a man who has demonstrated through voluntary and difficult service that he places the welfare of the group ahead of personal advantage.
"And that is the one practical difference."
"He may fail in wisdom, he may lapse in civic virtue. But his average performance is enormously better than that of any other class of rulers in history."

Take it for what it's worth. Their system works on a premise.

Quote:

Can they be trusted, or are they simply those who have already served, gained the franchise, and now act as arbiters of who else can even attempt to gain it?

The book says that the right to seek a franchise is constitutional. It is also stated that anyone who is mentally capable of understanding the oath can seek the franchise and they can't be dismissed-they can only resign. Those in the service don't hold a franchise so it seems to me that those who hold the franchise and those in the service would not really be able to stop anything without blatantly breaking the law.

Charlie59 · December 3rd, 2011, 06:43 PM

I've read the book at least three-four times, the last time being around 1965. So the movie wasn't like the book, since I only vaguely remember the book. I like the movie, in particular scenes showing centerfire rifles, and knife throwing. It was sort of refreshing and different to see a show about alien monsters being wasted without ray guns. You really can't fire a salvo of photon torpedos, with no fingers to push the launch button with. IMO, in 2011, or 2511--a .30-06 will kill the enemy just as dead as a phaser would. But, I wish it wasn't a "bug" movie.

I'm not sure about the German connection, but it was certainly there, from officers' caps to greatcoats to collar tabs. Also, the medical experiments on bugs, and so on. Hollywood was referenced earlier, as knowing how to make movies sell better. One way, is to include Nazis', some way, some how. From the first "Twilight Zone" series, to the Star Trek series, to about half of all Spielberg films(sci-fi). Nazis' in the past, the present, the future, on other planets, and even in alternative universes'. For some reason, I've never seen Stalin, Tojo, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, various Ayatollahs, or any of their brutal regimes made the theme of any full length sci-fi motion picture.

Albud3 · December 4th, 2011, 10:07 PM

I just got finished reading the book last week, went to look for it just now and can't find the dang thing! Wanted to see if it went into any detail as to what was considered government service. However, knowing somewhat of Heinlein's philosophy, I would be willing to bet that besides military service it included law enforcement (while the book covered military discipline it very lightly covered civilian), fire fighting, space exploration (pre-colonization), research in hostile environments/disciplines and other areas where one faced the definite possibility of loss of life/limb. Like Gus said, one did not have the vote unless/until they honorably completed/fulfilled their term of service. Therefore, they could not change anything that directly involved them until it no longer applied. After that the "if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for them" mindset would apply if anyone suggested making service "easier" for the next generation.

As for the definite "Nazification" of the movie, just remember that Heinlein's book is considered fascist by the liberals of Hollywierd. The mere suggestion that universal suffrage be replaced by requiring one "earn" the "right" by serving in the military (disregarding all other types of qualifying service) flies directly in the face of a liberal's belief that everyone has the right to everything regardless of the damage to the general welfare. Therefore, the jump from the military's small effect (disregarding the direct attacks on Earth) on the overall population's life in the book to what seems to be that if you want to do anything important, you had to join the big, bad, evil military that controlled everything (most importantly the media) in the movie. Anything to discourage someone from actually reading the book and being exposed to an intelligent and thought-provoking alternative opinion.

Earthquake · January 24th, 2012, 05:05 PM

If you are going to read Heinlein you need to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". I will tell you a book that sucked way worse then the movie and that is "Jaws"! Peter Benchley should be shot for that one! IMO
I'm mostly in to Clive Cussuler and Dale Brown, I started reading them as of late.

Casey

Bravo 26 · January 24th, 2012, 05:23 PM

One of the best sci-fi series i had read is the "Honor Harrington series" by David Weber..

there is one scene in one of the books where the main Character, Honor Harrington, goes to a parley on an enemy spaceship knowing it's an ambush. the enemy scans her body for energy weapon signs,( it's like 1000yrs into the future after all) and finding none, allows her into the ship, where she draws her 1911 .45 and blows away the enemy commander and his retinue in about 3 seconds.

just a real good read. the 1st one in the series is called "on Basilisk Station" i highly recommend it.

RHallenbeck · January 24th, 2012, 07:10 PM

The only redeeming quality from the movie that I can remember...

Rick

Rojkoh · January 30th, 2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveH

Here's a tidbit- there's a bad sci-fi movie on right now called "Starship Troopers". I caught a close-up of the cases ejecting out of what appears to be some kind of futuristic bull-pup type rifle. Inside all the plastic it looks like an M14 receiver!!!

Mini 14. I've handled them. It was a nice idea and was surprised the guys that did the mods didn't take it commercial. *IF* you watch the mini gun in Prefator and T2, me and Mark converted it from helicopter mount to hand held. Funny thing about it was fitting Jesse Ventura to carry the power cables down his clothes. We had the belt running out of his ammo bad to keep it running. When T2 was done, note that the sequence with Ahnold using the mini was done in typically 1 1 2/2 cuts, it's because they didn't want to run the feed line out of the bad. Sid got really ticked off when Ahnold dropped it at the end. When he retired and sold out, Sid had two mini-guns. Got a great laugh of how it was used on "Soldier" with Kurt Russel, since the 2 private people that knew how to work on it weren't available. When you want to have someone handle the weapon manually, you have to detune it to 3000 rpms. Yes, it fired blanks and was not a gas gun.

Rojkoh · January 30th, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveH

Here's a tidbit- there's a bad sci-fi movie on right now called "Starship Troopers". I caught a close-up of the cases ejecting out of what appears to be some kind of futuristic bull-pup type rifle. Inside all the plastic it looks like an M14 receiver!!!

So that you know, a dear friend of mine was one of the people at Ruger when they were designing the Mini. Besides the stories about that one, there's the fact that I happened to see ST when it came out (she wanted to see it). I called my friend and insisted he see it! I got a 15 minutes laugh riot out of that one. The guy is extremely funny. PS on this one, the M14 had 12 gauges used to check the production and rifles before they were shipped. Ruger has a very rare set of the M14 gauges since they were used to reverse engineer the mini.

Rojkoh · January 30th, 2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie59

I've read the book at least three-four times, the last time being around 1965. So the movie wasn't like the book, since I only vaguely remember the book. I like the movie, in particular scenes showing centerfire rifles, and knife throwing. It was sort of refreshing and different to see a show about alien monsters being wasted without ray guns. You really can't fire a salvo of photon torpedos, with no fingers to push the launch button with. IMO, in 2011, or 2511--a .30-06 will kill the enemy just as dead as a phaser would. But, I wish it wasn't a "bug" movie.

I'm not sure about the German connection, but it was certainly there, from officers' caps to greatcoats to collar tabs. Also, the medical experiments on bugs, and so on. Hollywood was referenced earlier, as knowing how to make movies sell better. One way, is to include Nazis', some way, some how. From the first "Twilight Zone" series, to the Star Trek series, to about half of all Spielberg films(sci-fi). Nazis' in the past, the present, the future, on other planets, and even in alternative universes'. For some reason, I've never seen Stalin, Tojo, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, various Ayatollahs, or any of their brutal regimes made the theme of any full length sci-fi motion picture.

Understand the realities of Artistic License.. it means while there is a reality, Hollywood has no binding contract to anchor anything in reality. I used to have a picture on this site of me with a ParaFal burning off a magazine at full auto to show the guys with me why it wasn't realities. Didn't matter. Write a script and sell it? It's no longer yours and they butcher them more then anything else most of the time.

FYI, Next Generation episode had Mad Dog Murdoch interfaced with the main computer and he could have fired off a volley of photons. I can tell you which stage we used to rebuild the original Enterprise sets for "Trails and Tribbleations" a DS-9 episode where they go back to save Kirk and crew. We called it the Forest Gump episode. Hell, I can tell you about the argument about the Design of the "E" for First Contact.

Charlie59 · January 30th, 2012, 10:21 AM

Just saw it again the other day. I like it better each time. I like the themes about citizenship, and the FX-----but please someone do a sequel and leave the damn bugs out of it!!!! And find a way to bring Diz back.
Charlie

LavaTech · January 30th, 2012, 12:22 PM

Gus - I can see why "A Message to Garcia" was the perfect rejoinder for your 'missing' communications. There's good reason for it to be on the Commandants Official reading list. One of my personal favorites is Ender's Game....and I'm wondering if the movie will do the novella justice. (Good possibility here, the thinner the book the closer the movie may be to following it in most cases.)

Gus Fisher · January 30th, 2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LavaTech

Gus - I can see why "A Message to Garcia" was the perfect rejoinder for your 'missing' communications. There's good reason for it to be on the Commandants Official reading list. One of my personal favorites is Ender's Game....and I'm wondering if the movie will do the novella justice. (Good possibility here, the thinner the book the closer the movie may be to following it in most cases.)

Ender's Game was a great short story when I first read it and was pleased to read the expanded book from the reading list.