most accurate defensive pistol? - Page 4 - M14 Forum

M14 Forum


most accurate defensive pistol?

This is a discussion on most accurate defensive pistol? within the Handguns forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by Landshark If you are willing to accept that the Extar EXP 556 is a pistol. It will easily shoot sub inch at ...


Go Back   M14 Forum > Gun Forum > Handguns

46Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Moderator Tools Display Modes

Old May 18th, 2017, 09:34 PM   #46
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
Concealment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landshark View Post
If you are willing to accept that the Extar EXP 556 is a pistol. It will easily shoot sub inch at 50 and sub 3 inches at 200.
Is there an IWB or OWB holster for the Extar EXP 556? Because we are talking about handguns. I would classify that as a hand rifle.

Magnumdood is online now  
Remove Ads
Old May 18th, 2017, 09:35 PM   #47
Old Salt
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnumdood View Post
According to FBI statistics the "average" gunfight lasts 2.5 ~ 3 seconds, 2 to 3 shots are fired and the combatants are ~10 feet apart. ANY handgun that will function correctly is easily accurate enough to hit center mass from those distances. The "winner" of the fight by a large margin is the guy who gets the first shot off. So, it would appear that the important variables to look at would be,

1. Does the handgun function reliably?
2. How quickly can you produce and shove your fist out, holding your handgun, toward your opponent (which roughly places the handgun 7 feet from your opponent), and pull the trigger?
3. Can you maintain roughly the same position and hit the opponent a second time in the torso (supposing you shot first) if needed?
The problem with "average" values is that half the time value is greater than the average.

rickgman is online now  
Old May 18th, 2017, 09:42 PM   #48
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
Shooting without out sights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Haig View Post
It's got to be a natural pointer. Can you bring it up and point and shoot w/o sights.
If I were in court, and was the world's best point shooter (no sights), the court would never hear me say I shot the deceased without using my sights. I teach this to my students and was taught this by my instructors 30 years ago, and every in-service instructor along the way. It's a HUGE piece of the permanent court record forever. If you clipped the wrong person and also admit you did not use your sights you'd be awful lucky to stay out of jail. In fact, unless you're white and wealthy, I believe you'd end up in prison for at least involuntary manslaughter.

THEN comes the civil trial...

Magnumdood is online now  
 
Old May 18th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #49
Platoon Commander
 
pupulepeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 547
Out of the box? P220.
With a few tweaks? 1911 clone all the way.

If you consider it a defense pistol, the P210 is amazing.

pupulepeter is offline  
Old May 18th, 2017, 09:46 PM   #50
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
Average values

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
The problem with "average" values is that half the time value is greater than the average.
And the other half of the time the values are less than the average. I suspect if we were able to examine the raw data, many more than half of the "average" would be below the average value.

Magnumdood is online now  
Old May 18th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #51
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Arizona Bay
Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnumdood View Post
And the other half of the time the values are less than the average. I suspect if we were able to examine the raw data, many more than half of the "average" would be below the average value.
You're probably right, and it may be a matter of passive aggressive punitive action as much as anything else.

Though, personally, when I consider how often in my life I'm going to be required to shoot somebody in self defense (hopefully never), and put that into context of what the most valuable purpose of that weapon is, to protect my life, and the lives of others, and the potential cost of legal defense for either unwarranted criminal or civil action...

If everybody who should be alive and well is, I have my freedom, and I'm not dumped by poverty, while I'd like to have my gun back on principle, the actual cost of the weapon is something I can live with losing.

It is, though, a good reason to have more than one, if you feel the need to have one handy while authorities are figuring it out, because having what you might need to buy later is better than having that money in the bank, what with that ten day waiting period, and all.

I do sincerely wish that this remains a highly hypothetical for any and all that it has so far remained such, but such things are probably good to discuss.

Do many of you guys carry legal insurance of some kind for just such a horrible event? I noticed that the NRA magazine started to market their own brand.

regardless, good luck to all!


MuppetMeat4Me is offline  
Old May 18th, 2017, 11:05 PM   #52
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Arizona Bay
Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougboffl View Post

What you describe is known as the "Glock knuckle" some 200 grit along that right lower edge of the trigger guard (in the hump) followed by 600 grit and then finish with 1,000 and you'll never have to think about "if the Velcro falls off". I only needed to take off like one billionth of an inch. If you are very careful and take your time, it will take seven minutes to sand it out (that includes cleanup and test firing and having a cold drink). I see folks gouge out a bunch with Dremels and torches but it really only took a very small amount on mine.

(You probably already know all this)
I knew nothing! Thanks for telling me. I considered and then dismissed the dremel idea. This fix implies that it is related to texture, or the shape of the edge itself? I'm looking to round it then?

Thanks much. Will give it a try!

MuppetMeat4Me is offline  
Old May 18th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #53
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
Shield Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetMeat4Me View Post
...Do many of you guys carry legal insurance of some kind for just such a horrible event? I noticed that the NRA magazine started to market their own brand.

regardless, good luck to all!

I carry insurance that covers any kind of deadly force I have to use to save my life or the lives of innocent others. It's called Shield, and they have an emergency card that has an 800 number that I call right after I call 911 to report the shooting. I have basically 4 things I tell the police, among them that I will cooperate and will sign a complaint, but not until my attorney is present. When I call the 800 number the closest attorney in their network is immediately sent my way to bond me out of needed and begin the case preparation. All of their attorneys specialize in shootings, but they are also experts in use of force cases. I pay $27.00 a month. They have several levels to the plan you can sign up for, and the levels are simply put how much money they will spend on you in criminal court and civil court and damages in civil court. I picked the highest level of coverage. They cover up to $1 million in damages from a civil suit in my level of coverage. I was a deputy sheriff in Texas for 17 years. I paid dues to two organizations that specialized in defending law enforcement officers. I used them twice and was really glad I was paying dues. Attorney fees would break a cop if the case goes to court.

Magnumdood is online now  
Old May 19th, 2017, 07:06 AM   #54
Lifer
 
Dougboffl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Sonshine State, JC
Posts: 2,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetMeat4Me View Post
I knew nothing! Thanks for telling me. I considered and then dismissed the dremel idea. This fix implies that it is related to texture, or the shape of the edge itself? I'm looking to round it then?

Thanks much. Will give it a try!


Yes, just a softening of the right edge in the trigger-guard-hump-area is all it took on mine (red oval, Glock 22). Make it safe, check your grip and just smooth a very little bit between test fittings. By naked eye I can hardly tell it is even modified and I'm anneal. For me the worst part was where I indicated with the green arrow in the pic. YMMV.

I wouldn't do the Dremel thing on any gun, not my style. If Glocks were that much of a mis-fit for me I would carry my Sigs or my Shield (oh wait, I do carry my Shield but am in process of transiting to my new G27).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg glock knucklejpg.jpg (629.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170519_094259705.jpg (973.1 KB, 8 views)

Thanks from MuppetMeat4Me
Dougboffl is online now  
Old May 19th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #55
Old Salt
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnumdood View Post
And the other half of the time the values are less than the average. I suspect if we were able to examine the raw data, many more than half of the "average" would be below the average value.
I think when you state "average" in this context, I think that you mean population. That being said, I would suggest that in this case, I would expect that the average (an estimate of the mean) is going to be very close to the median. I believe this will be the case since the distribution of the population will likely cluster heavily around the average. Nonetheless, it is imprudent to base training or weapon selection on averages. I favor training and weapon selection on the most difficult scenarios and that isn't the average.

rickgman is online now  
Old May 19th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #56
Grunt
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Great Lakes Area
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnumdood View Post
According to FBI statistics the "average" gunfight lasts 2.5 ~ 3 seconds, 2 to 3 shots are fired and the combatants are ~10 feet apart. ANY handgun that will function correctly is easily accurate enough to hit center mass from those distances. The "winner" of the fight by a large margin is the guy who gets the first shot off. So, it would appear that the important variables to look at would be,

1. Does the handgun function reliably?
2. How quickly can you produce and shove your fist out, holding your handgun, toward your opponent (which roughly places the handgun 7 feet from your opponent), and pull the trigger?
3. Can you maintain roughly the same position and hit the opponent a second time in the torso (supposing you shot first) if needed?
Mag, what a great post. You nailed it perfectly with variables to look at! My most accurate pistols are my P226 and my P220. However these pistols are not my fastest draw? In my eyes being first shooter (draw and situational awareness) is far more important and I will give a little on accuracy.

Thanks from Magnumdood
rabbitone is online now  
Old May 19th, 2017, 08:18 PM   #57
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
When I was a Deputy

When I was a Deputy in Texas I regularly practiced hitting a silhouette at 100 yards and at 50 yards. That type of firing was different. I rightfully assumed I would have more time to prepare and line up my sights on the target, or duck and run for cover, then get a sight picture. I became competent enough to keep all of my rounds on the body of the silhouette. They might not have been a shot that killed or stopped my opponent, but it sure would hurt and bleed a lot. I often thought of my handgun was to be used for emergencies I did not see coming, and also a means to fight back to get my rifle. I carried an M1A Supermatch in the trunk of my patrol car. It was for emergencies I did see coming. It was a heavy but welcome companion if I had to set up on the perimeter of an active crime scene. We were assigned vehicles and were encouraged to drive them off duty as well. I sold that M1A when I resigned from the SO and moved to Illinois. I used the money to contribute to the build of a ridiculously heavy bolt gun in an even more ridiculous cartridge. I had fun with the bolt gun, but I regretted selling that M1A ever since. I had a Zeiss 3-12x56 scope on it. I taped nickels to the targets and that rifle would put a bullet through 9 out of 10 of the nickels I shot at. Usually it was a condition I missed. When I felt really good I'd tape dimes on the target to shoot at. I kept all those for years and years...but somehow lost track of where they were in the myriad of JUNK we brought from Texas to Illinois. I still look for them on occasion.

Thanks from rabbitone and MuppetMeat4Me
Magnumdood is online now  
Old May 19th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #58
Platoon Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 315
The average

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickgman View Post
I think when you state "average" in this context, I think that you mean population. That being said, I would suggest that in this case, I would expect that the average (an estimate of the mean) is going to be very close to the median. I believe this will be the case since the distribution of the population will likely cluster heavily around the average. Nonetheless, it is imprudent to base training or weapon selection on averages. I favor training and weapon selection on the most difficult scenarios and that isn't the average.
No, I meant mathematical average. The average IS the mean. Since the average is the mean, and mean is the average, yeah, they'd be pretty close to being the same value. Of course the distribution, 68% (1 S from the mean above and one S below), will be clustered 34% below the mean and 34% above the mean since you're talking about inferential statistics and the normal curve. As I said, when I stated average it represents a mathematical expression that, in this case, is not exact, but is close to the stated averages/means. Favor what you wish. I never leave the range until I've gone through a short scenario at least 10 times using the average distance I will be from my opponent (10') and I fire two shots or more. I don't want to quit shooting after firing 2 rounds because that's all I practiced shooting. Occasionally someone has a Pocket Pro Shot Timer on them and I can draw on the tone and see how long it takes me draw and fire after the tone, representing my awareness of a lethal threat. That's dangerous to me in and of itself - I may be transfixed in the line at the stop-n-rob, with a bad guy drawing and I'm waiting for the tone to sound. So, when I get the opportunity I much prefer to have a turning target line so that when threat presents itself, I take defensive action. The largest majority of the population the statistics represent will be inner-city black males between the ages of 16 & 25. I suspect the short duration of the gunfight is because they are already holding their guns out and just shoot when a target presents itself. If the media was worth even a hair on a dog's behind they would report that. Eliminate the shooting deaths from the black on black crime and America suddenly jumps up and becomes one of the safest places in the world to live. But neither side really wants those stats out in the open because they serve the argument of both sides (democrat / republican).

Magnumdood is online now  
Old May 20th, 2017, 12:03 AM   #59
Old Salt
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnumdood View Post
No, I meant mathematical average.
You earlier stated: I suspect if we were able to examine the raw data, many more than half of the "average" would be below the average value.

I do think that you actually meant population in this context not average.

rickgman is online now  
Old May 20th, 2017, 10:48 AM   #60
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 8
I've kind of lost interest in Leg Matches since they opened it up but the last time I looked 92's from Nick Abrashimian and Dave Sam's were pretty much dominating. I guess they are railed and shoot sub 2 inches at 50.

There are probably a lot of sub inch and 1/2 1911's being carried around. I bought a model 80 off gunbroker that was accurailed and it shot so well I converted it into a wadgun.

Walther came out with a polymer striker fired pistol called the PPQ that is about the same size as a G19 that has an incredible trigger. The M2 version feels to me like it's in the same class as a Giessele, Jewel, or Anschutz.

There is a video of some old fellow shooting a 10 shot 1 inch group two-handed with one at 50. I think he does about the same with a worked over glock, and an xdm.

Massad Ayoob / John Strayer have a shooting review of the $300 Canik where they got it shoot 1 inch groups off a rest at 25 yards with everything they fed it.

Fwiw, I've been messing around with a couple of PPQ's and the Canik. They're not bullseye accurate but they are pretty close. They will shoot on call. I think probably the same could be said for a lot of the polymer striker fired pistols from all the manufacturers.

I hate carrying a pistol and have gone to just sticking a Kimber micro 9 in my pocket. It is not a tackdriver. Apparently Ruger has come out with a striker version of their little pocket 9 that is a real good shooting little gun.

Landshark is online now  
Reply

  M14 Forum > Gun Forum > Handguns

Moderator Tools
Display Modes


Similar M14 Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1911 - Who makes the best? Battle5 Handguns 86 March 14th, 2015 11:14 AM
I received a question about a Shively Pistol Barrel for NM .45's. Gus Fisher Gus Fisher 0 July 28th, 2013 01:24 AM
AAR - ATG Worldwide Tactical Pistol, Lisbon OH, 3/17/13 Hoss08 Handguns 0 March 19th, 2013 09:38 AM
NY Action Alert: Renewable Pistol Permits VARMINT223 Gun Rights 1 April 27th, 2009 09:44 PM
If you live in the state of Maryland M1APREBAN The M14 13 February 16th, 2004 05:09 PM



Top Gun Sites Top Sites List