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Army to Adopt SIG Sauer Handgun

This is a discussion on Army to Adopt SIG Sauer Handgun within the Handguns forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by Pr589 Without trying to re-debate the 45 vs. 9 mm argument again - the FBI seems to have done that quite well. ...


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Old January 20th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Pr589 View Post
Without trying to re-debate the 45 vs. 9 mm argument again - the FBI seems to have done that quite well. "Terminal stopping power" is a well documented myth. Most studies show that there are multiple reasons why attackers stop but from a physical perspective, only critical damage to the central nervous system or to major organs will do this.

In pistol caliber rounds, blood loss due to impact trauma can take minutes to hours to cause loss of consciousness. The differences between 45 and 9 mm are indistinguishable in this regard. I will post references later if I have the time.
Right. So when you go to Africa on a dangerous game hunt "terminal stopping power" is a myth. Last time I checked, the minimum you can use on those hunts is a 375 H&H. You can't bring your nine or your AR out there because...guest what, they don't have the penetration or stopping power.

Scale things down a bit and the principle is the same. Sure if you hit a guy in the head or heart, with a 22 he'll go down. I like things that make big holes. I've shot many an animal that proves me right. They go down and don't get up...ever. If I don't get a great vital hit on game, but there's a big hole in him, they don't go real far before they're done.

I like to look at history for what works rather than a biased, new age study. Here's another example. American Bison in the west. What did they use? A really big slow bullet. Worked quite well.

If I could put a 44 mag round in a 1911, I would. In the mean time, I do carry a 44 mag revolver when in bear country because...it has stopping power. The FBI studies will point to a 9mm because that's what they want to carry...period.

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Old January 20th, 2017, 11:37 PM   #47
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Until NATO changes or we withdraw from them it's going to be 9mm for "general issue" type stuff. All the talk about 45s, 44s and buffalo guns is just whacking it.

The real question is will the Sig hold up or will it fall apart like the Marsoc 1911s they made all the noise over a little while ago.

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Old January 21st, 2017, 08:10 AM   #48
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http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...=dod_170120.nl

Got this today.

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Old January 21st, 2017, 09:13 AM   #49
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I halfway got the feeling that this was a decision made by the residing 'Obama Lackeys' to give a big "Middle Finger" to the incoming replacements or appointees. After all ... I don't understand why they chose a plastic pistol that is modular in design, and will be a 'Throw Away' or replacement unit when broken.

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Old January 21st, 2017, 10:36 AM   #50
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I don't understand why they chose a plastic pistol that is modular in design, and will be a 'Throw Away' or replacement unit when broken.
Probably because that was the criteria for their purchase order, a polymer pistol that is "modular" so that it can be converted to a different caliber/barrel size, parts easily replaced etc.

IMHO it is a good idea, the question is whether or not the bureaucrats in our military/government can actually make it work...

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Old January 21st, 2017, 11:00 AM   #51
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The DOD have been trying to dethrone M9 since before 2008 (M9 A1 contract was the last outcome). It is running long at 30 year shelf life IMHO.

The M9 won against the P226 (cost reasons) in original replacement of 1911 contract. Most believe P226 is better modular (caliber, sights, accessories) platfom to this day.

Handcrafted 1911's replaced for cost reasons and NATO ammunition.

Cost, Quality, Time Restraint to Objective Analysis:

Objective:
Get the highest amount of service members to hit the target in the least amount of time at low cost.

Cost: +++
If we cannot afford to purchase/maintain/load the sidearms for every service member it won't matter.

Quality: ++
If a member does not hit the target then the size of hole or tissue damage does not matter. Company known and relied upon QC/QA in LE applications.

Time: +
As the M9 service life ends (2020 for M9A1)

Note: Not really sure why I am getting into this. Educational excercise and enjoyment I suppose. Never fired a P320 - Maybe someone who has fired can detail experience.

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Old January 21st, 2017, 05:23 PM   #52
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Congratulations Army to your ne choice of a handgun!

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Old January 21st, 2017, 05:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by swagbrdr View Post
That's nice. Tissue damage is cute and all, but how about terminal stopping power? Bigger hole, more blood...dead bad guy.
"Stopping power" and handguns are not generally synonymous. That being said, Id rather go with more 9mm. I can carry more, and follow-up shots are much easier. Plus, the Army is moving over to JHP's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr589 View Post
Without trying to re-debate the 45 vs. 9 mm argument again - the FBI seems to have done that quite well. "Terminal stopping power" is a well documented myth. Most studies show that there are multiple reasons why attackers stop but from a physical perspective, only critical damage to the central nervous system or to major organs will do this.

In pistol caliber rounds, blood loss due to impact trauma can take minutes to hours to cause loss of consciousness. The differences between 45 and 9 mm are indistinguishable in this regard. I will post references later if I have the time.
Very well stated PR589 ^^

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Old January 21st, 2017, 08:32 PM   #54
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I know it's a pipe dream, but I was hoping they'd go with the .357SIG. What a wonderful round.

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Old January 21st, 2017, 08:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44357 View Post
The DOD have been trying to dethrone M9 since before 2008 (M9 A1 contract was the last outcome). It is running long at 30 year shelf life IMHO.

The M9 won against the P226 (cost reasons) in original replacement of 1911 contract. Most believe P226 is better modular (caliber, sights, accessories) platfom to this day.

Handcrafted 1911's replaced for cost reasons and NATO ammunition.

Cost, Quality, Time Restraint to Objective Analysis:

Objective:
Get the highest amount of service members to hit the target in the least amount of time at low cost.

Cost: +++
If we cannot afford to purchase/maintain/load the sidearms for every service member it won't matter.

Quality: ++
If a member does not hit the target then the size of hole or tissue damage does not matter. Company known and relied upon QC/QA in LE applications.

Time: +
As the M9 service life ends (2020 for M9A1)

Note: Not really sure why I am getting into this. Educational excercise and enjoyment I suppose. Never fired a P320 - Maybe someone who has fired can detail experience.
Fail

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Old January 21st, 2017, 08:52 PM   #56
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I'll keep my 45 on my nightstand, my bolt gun for hunting chambered for 300 WSM, and my 4 inch SW model 29-2 for hog walks. Yea I have for 9's 4 of them and carry one most of the time. But if I was in a hostile envoirment I would want a larger caliber than the 38/357/9 mm. But there isn't anything we can do about what Uncle Sam hands our troops.

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Old January 22nd, 2017, 04:00 AM   #57
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I really don't see this, haven't read it anyway, yet, aside from choosing a pistol, there's the actual funding and procurement and fielding, which I really don't see that part of it coming to fruition, especially in this fiscal environment the country is in.

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Old January 22nd, 2017, 03:53 PM   #58
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I own 3 sig sauer handguns (being from NH and having several friends that work at SIG) and I love them all. Having said that, the P320 was the shortest owned pistol in my collection. It felt like a cheaper, chunkier glock. I traded it in almost immediately for a new Glock 20. On the other hand, my Mk25 226 is probably my favorite beat around, dirty girl, glove box gun. Its smooth as butter, draws from a holster really well, has a great 227 SR Trigger, and is accurate as hell. I call it the Cadillac.

Thanks from John Crusher, 44357 and NWDave
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Old January 26th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #59
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Rumor: P320 @ $207

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ular-handguns/

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Old February 3rd, 2017, 06:46 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagbrdr View Post
Right. So when you go to Africa on a dangerous game hunt "terminal stopping power" is a myth. Last time I checked, the minimum you can use on those hunts is a 375 H&H. You can't bring your nine or your AR out there because...guest what, they don't have the penetration or stopping power.

Scale things down a bit and the principle is the same.
As others have indicated, this is incorrect. The effects of energy imparted by a round traveling at 2,600+ fps is quite different than one traveling at 1,200 fps or less (700-800 fps in the case of 45 ACP).

Remember that energy increases as the square of velocity. All studies indicate that "hydrostatic shock" while clearly present in rifle-calibre rounds, is not apparent for pistol rounds. While penetration is a key factor, most studies how smaller, high-velocity rounds have higher penetration, hence the move to 9 mm.

The net result is that wound trauma from a high-velocity rifle cartridge is not readily comparable to that from most pistol calibres.

I'm always amazed at the persistence of myths in society...looks like we (gunnies) are no different from the public at large.


Last edited by Pr589; February 3rd, 2017 at 06:51 PM.
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