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Marines give Colt the nod for new pistol

10K views 85 replies 32 participants last post by  Gus Fisher 
#1 ·
#6 ·
#8 ·
I'm sorry to be the downer in the 1911 glory story, and as much as I do respect the 1911 being a nice pistol when done right, it's extremely outdated and stupid of the Marines in my opinion to order a new batch.

There's got to be something else behind this. Either money in a generals or politicians pocket, buddies doing favors or someone buying their favorite instead of what's best. There are more modern, more reliable, less complex designed, lighter, higher capacity, polymer framed .45's out there than the 1911. Easier to maintain and less dependant on lubrication too.

An H&K, FN or Beretta PX4 would have been a smarter choice to me, but obviously smart didn't have a lot to do with this choice. It won't be the last they choose though that makes me shake my head I'm sure.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I'm sorry to be the downer in the 1911 glory story, and as much as I do respect the 1911 being a nice pistol when done right, it's extremely outdated and stupid of the Marines in my opinion to order a new batch.

There's got to be something else behind this. Either money in a generals or politicians pocket, buddies doing favors or someone buying their favorite instead of what's best. There are more modern, more reliable, less complex designed, lighter, higher capacity, polymer framed .45's out there than the 1911. Easier to maintain and less dependant on lubrication too.

An H&K, FN or Beretta PX4 would have been a smarter choice to me, but obviously smart didn't have a lot to do with this choice. It won't be the last they choose though that makes me shake my head I'm sure.
First of all, everyone has a right to their own opinion on what they believe to be "what's best."

I emboldened a part of your post because I can speak directly to it, having been involved in varying degrees with the prototype and acceptance phase of the M40A1, MEUSOC .45 Pistol, M16A2, and the original DMR M14.

When the Corps decides they need or want a new weapon system, the first thing is done is a "requirements package" is drawn up for the weapon and that is often the subject of HUGE amounts of debate to even some knock down drag out fights. A HUGE amount of weight is given to the End Users on what they want and need in this stage of the process and they also get involved with testing weapons that are submitted and in making suggestions on the test weapons BEFORE they are accepted. Now, I would never try to hand anyone "a line" about we always got it right the first time because all of those weapons turned out to be the best compromise of what we wanted. We even royally screwed up IMO on putting that DARN burst control device in the M16A2 and especially the POS one that is in it and that Colt designed.

One of the "big ticket items" in the requirements package was the pistols HAD to be capable of firing 20,000 rounds without major damage to the frame, slide or barrel. At least some of the makers of "more modern, polymer framed pistols" chose not to even ENTER their pistols into the competition, because they knew their pistols could not satisfy that requirement. Another was there had to be a way to positively mount a light or laser or other types of sights to the pistol. This was one thing we could never satisfy the MEUSOC/SOCCOM Marines about when we used the orignal M1911A1's we used to build the original MEUSOC .45's with because we could not come up with a good way to mount a picatinney rail on them. It probably would have taken a MAJOR redesign to have a Picatinney Rail on a Polymer frame that would still be good after 20,000 rounds. Yes, they perhaps COULD have done it, but I suppose they were not interested in doing it for a contract of only 4,000 pistols.

So AFTER the "Requirements Package" is argued out, then the list is offered to ANY maker of weapons who are interested in competing. We are required by Federal Law and DOD directives to test any pistol that was offered for the testing process. I don't know this to be true from my own experience, but it has been reported that no maker of "more modern, polymer framed pistols" even entered the competition. If they did, they got a fair test against the stipulations of the Requirements Package and THEY WERE FOUND WANTING and not able to meet the stipulations of the Requirements Package.

One may argue it "is not fair" that the pistols were required to meet the 20,000 round requirement of other requirements, but that argument was LOST while the Requirements Package was being developed and cussed and discussed.
 
#10 ·
Oh going back to VERY early in my Career, we Marines were mocked and ridiculed for sticking with a Bolt Action for the M40A1 and we were called "Old Fashioned, Not Modern, Out of Touch, etc., etc. for doing it as the Army already had the M21 Sniper system based on the M14. Now the M21 made an acceptable medium range Sniper Rifle, but it could not and did not hold the long range accuracy we Marines demanded of a Sniper Rifle. So what happened? Well after a few years, the Army asked us if we could make several thousand M40A1's for them and we just did not have the manpower and resources to do it, so they went to Remington for a BOLT ACTION, old fashioned, not most modern rifle when they developed the M24 sniper rifle and pretty much dropped the M21 for serious sniper work.
 
#11 ·
The only other entrant if my memory serves me was a Springfield entry. I think it was the Operator. Seems to me the Marines knew what they wanted and the way I understand it had been using Springfield frames and such to fill in the gaps for several years. Colt won the competition. I've read all the arguments against the 1911 yet it's still going strong. Only the SAA has a longer production life but that's more for nostalgia. The 1911 on the other hand has been copied by damn near every major firearms manufacturer in the world. It set a standard that in all reality hasn't been beat. I don't think most polymer framed pistols are going to be around 100 years from now. The 1911 just may be. I also think it a ridiculous argument they are difficult to maintain or somehow unsafe for troops to carry. Our military carried it through every major conflict of the 20th Century and worked just fine.
 
#26 ·
Lionseye, there you go with that blasphemy again!


I know Leadbug, sorry to put a hamper on the 1911 fap fest fun, but someone had to put it out there. I do admire the 1911's. There classic pistols like the M14 is a classic rifle, but military needs and choices of best is different than for you or I. And I just can't see how a Colt 1911 came to be best choice over more modern, high capacity choices. Lots of polymer pistols are running far past 20,000 rounds and been through heavy testing for that to make much sense.

It is a small contract, but there's some meat to what Berndog says, that it will likely grow more than 4,000 in time. Whoever made the final decision wanted a Colt 1911, and a Colt 1911 is what they'll get. Atleast till the money run outs and things get worse in this country. I do appreciate that it's an American design, but that doesn't make it best and I'd prefer our troops have the best they can get for the money right now.



DI5
 
#17 ·
lol rationalizing are we!


I too think your entitled to your opinion, but even if gus didn't totally throw your post out of the realm of possibility. lets say it was due to generals and insiders...

wouldn't you rather an American Company get the contract? not belgium, or italy, and germany????

Theres such a double standard about "ill only use an American Rifle" but my pistol can be from europe! (now I'm not trying to put words in lions' mouth i don't recall him saying that about rifles)

My point is that its funny how the laws mimic our preferences.. or actually we've molded our preferences around the laws.

If there were no ban on foreign built rifles would we all be praising the Tavor, Galil, and AN-94?
 
#15 ·
Ya Im sure that 4,000 pistols is all the Corps will buy! Come on.

Although I have talked with Marines that say the .9mm is a fine pistol I found that the over whelming majority would rather have the 1911. I have a feeling this is just a foot in the door contract and when the grunts see their fellow brothers carrying the 1911 they will be screaming for one of their own!
Should never have gotten rid of the 1911 in the first place!

And why did they choose a series 80 pistol w a plastic main spring housing?
 
#16 ·
The newest Marine Corps Times has a write-up on it.

The Marine version appears to have basic enhancements over stock production rail guns; the noticeable desert color, G10 grips, MS housing w/lanyard hook, Novak nightsights, a short trigger. In the article it called for a different than production dual recoil spring though. I'd assume sort of like the Delta Elite was.

I got a rail gun. It's been to Colt's Custom Shop. Hands down the best Colt 1911 I've ever had. This Marine loves it.DI5
 
#19 ·
USA,USA,USA...USA,USA,USA

hell yes sir!

That article made me proud... the FN has its place so do the HK products... berretta too but they can go suck a canoli, a sausage , and a big buttery waffle! give our marine a 1911!
time to start saving for the civilian version.
 
#53 ·
Does the retired Marine General still run Colt? Funny how they won the contract. There are better and less expensive modern guns. They can write the specs so anyone design will be better than another.
Yes, I think the retired Marine General does still run Colt, but that had nothing to do with it, unless you have information that no one at MARCORSYSCOM has or knows about. So if you have such evidence, then please provide it.

Colt still CAN make the best 1911A1? YES, if and when they want to do it IMO. I say that due to problems Colt has had with the Union over the years.
However, IF the pistols don't live up to the test examples, they will lose the contract.

As to the specs and writing them so one design can more easily pass. Well, of course that is true in a general sense, but that really doesn't mean much. The SOCCOM Marines prefer a single action auto over a double action auto BECAUSE as someone mentioned, the pistol is used as an Offensive Weapon and not a "General Purpose Issue Pistol." We can argue over whether a DA auto if best for general issue in the Armed forces, but the SOCCOM Marines need the best offensive weapon and don't believe a DA auto fills that bill.

Now, Sig has pistols with SS frames, but they did not CHOOSE to modify them for a picatinney rail and .45 caliber. You can not blame the companies that CHOSE to offer their pistols with the picatinney rail that the SOCCOM Marines want and need over the Companies who CHOSE NOT to do so.

SOCCOM troops whether they be Marines, Army, Navy Seals, etc. have a lot more real life offensive gunfighting expersience with pistols than most other people. Since the pistols are to be issued to them and they KNOW every other type of pistol commonly available, it makes sense to give them the kind of pistol they want for what they do.
 
#21 ·
Ya know the only problem with the others pistols that were mentioned is? Their not 1911's! That says it all! IMO all of these pistols and manufactures have tried to invent a "bigger better mouse trap" so to speak.
Mr. Browning got it right 100 years ago and we've tried to re invent the wheel ever since.
Yes it heavy. Yes it has lots of recoil. But it works! Fires a big bullet and works!

Remember if you bring a pistol to a gun fight your already screwed! If I had to pull a pistol in a combat situation I'd want the biggest round I could get and then know I could beat the brains in of my enemy after I'm out of bullets.
Ur not doing that w a plastic gun!
I've owned all the pistols mentioned and they all are good pistols. The only one I kept are 1911's.
 
#22 ·
this would be better than a 1911., even still some would argue against that notion though.

.. i bet the liberals can't wait for these things.





even in ST there were gun politics... the federation used the phaser, because the disrupter was far to cruel and painful.
 
#23 ·
Gus, I'm curious if you could comment on this article?

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20/marsoc-winning-colt-guns/

Now keep in mind I am a 1911 fan! My very first handgun was a 1911 and it is still my favorite to shoot. Like Lionseye though, I am a seriously difficult time believing that there isn't a higher capacity, lighter weight alternative to the 1911 that will still perform reliably.

The FNP 45 Tactical springs to mind as the most logical successor in spirit and design to the 1911.
 
#28 ·
The article linked to does not list any of the testing protocol that led to those pictures. Was standard ammo used? Was grossly over pressure ammo used to see how much abuse the pistol could handle?
What were the test conditions? A sunny day at the range, or a pistol deliberately packed full of mud?
Without information the pictures are pretty much meaningless.
 
#27 ·
Not everyone is hung up on capacity, if you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 50 feet a 1000 round magazine ain't gonna help ya.

The 1911 design is a proven design, WWI,WWII, Korea, Veitnam just to name a few, the .mil should have never gotten rid of it.
 
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#25 ·
Other Pistols Than The 1911

I understand some people think there are better choices but here are the facts in the selection for the MEUSOC pistol. The Marines never entirely gave up the 1911 pistol for their elite units. The M45 pistol was made in house from stocks of M1911A1 frames. But these were getting old due to use. During the bid process only three companies responded, Colt, SAInc, and a small firm which did not even submit trial pistols. Colt won the competition. Now as for the other brands, HK, FN, etc.. , they did not have a 1911 based design to submit and the Marines did not want another system to work on, THEIR decision. As for the USP, great gun for SWAT situations but not good in desert environment which the fine sand can get into the action. I know because I carreidone for a year and a half. FN has a problem with certain brands of 45 ACP ammo and it has been well documented. Sorry but the 1911 is back and this time I might just buy a clone or wait till they are surplused.
 
#30 ·
Didn't MARSOC just buy a crapload of Kimbers like 4 years ago? They wore those out this fast?
 
#31 ·
I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that the operators themselves are partial to the 1911 and even had some input. It is a tried and true platform that packs the punch they desire. Yes the Marine Corps put out a spec sheet, yes there are many other firearms that can get the job done, but some of those specs were requested by the guys on the ground. Colt stepped up to the plate and gave them exactly what they wanted. Many of the operators I know prefer the 1911 because it's a pistol that doesn't feel like a toy.
 
#34 ·
The Marine Corps knows what it wants, especially in the SOC arena.

Gus's input about how the process works is great. Sometimes, especially when things are designed by a committee, you end up with something that looks like a duck-billed platypus as the old joke goes. This is true even within a relatively small, tight organization like the Marine Corps.

BUT, this is going to be less true within the MARSOC community. These guys know EXACTLY what they want, and why, and they have good reasons for it.

The cadre of that bunch are world class shooters, have been to pretty much every one of the top-line shooting schools like Gunsite, and have probably shot every pistol in existence. They know what they are talking about.

One thing to keep in mind, the requirements for a MARSOC pistol are different than for a standard military sidearm. Everywhere else, a pistol is considered to be a self-defense weapon, and a last ditch one at that. If an officer or Staff NCO has to draw his Beretta and get in the gunfight, things have gone seriously bad.

Not so in the SOC environment. The SOC pistol is considered an OFFENSIVE weapon. On a Direct Action mission, when a shooter's carbine (whatever it is) goes down, he is expected to transition to the pistol and continue the attack just as aggressively, and knock down bad guys just as fast and hard. And if the pistol goes down, he better be ready to bust heads with it.

The 20,000 round count is not a joke. I went through the entire MEU(SOC) shooting workup. The platoon involved was armed with the MEU(SOC) .45s. They didn't have extras laying around so my team had to do the workup and deploy with Berettas. As I posted in the Beretta 92 thread, none of our 4 brand new Berettas made it even halfway through the course before they broke. All of them. And I'm not making that up or remembering wrong.

They shoot the $*%$^ out of those pistols. Actually I'm surprised the round count was that low. If a SOC pistol breaks every 20K rounds, it would basically have to be rebuilt or replaced after every deployment, or maybe two.

The MARSOC guys speak loudly and clearly within the Marine Corps. If they thought a polymer frame wondergun was better, they would have them.
 
#36 ·
The military version of the Swiss SIG P210 that came out in 1947, had their barrel rated at 150,000 rounds and their pistols became available all over Europe and the rest of the world have been shot way beyond that round count. They are still very prized pistols especially now since SIG the Swiss conglomerate no longer make firearms.

I have one of the civilianized versions made in 1987 and it is superb. The US government should have gone with them because as I remember we were seeing failures in the Berettas' slides in my unit's machine gun crews!
 
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